From Gsdphotog at aol.com  Fri Dec  1 11:29:15 2006
From: Gsdphotog at aol.com (Gsdphotog at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 12:29:15 EST
Subject: [wxqc] Dewpoint Problems for CW3462
Message-ID: <c7e.fb9990.32a1c06b@aol.com>

Need suggestions.  For months dewpoint was reading correctly.   Now for the 
last approximately 3 weeks it is off (good old red X).  I know  that the site 
is correct as I had help from CWOP getting it right. The location  is correct, 
in fact my number points into my driveway it is so close.   I  have tried 
changing the dewpoint settings in the setup part of the program.a  Davis Vantage 
Pro with Weatherlink.  If it helps I am about 10 miles from  Inman S.C. off 357 
about a mile west of the Holly Springs Firehouse.
 
It seems that no matter how I try to fix the numbers to make the info come  
out right, nothing works.  Tried resetting it when it was raining and that  
didn't help.  The post is in cement away from house and trees.  Tried  a 
suggestion from Davis and that did not work, the last suggestion is that maybe  I need 
to get a new Temperature/Humidity Sensor Board.  Would this be a  logical 
next step?   Help!      June  CW3462
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From brillig at gmail.com  Fri Dec  1 11:39:15 2006
From: brillig at gmail.com (Victor Engel)
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 11:39:15 -0600
Subject: [wxqc] Dewpoint Problems for CW3462
In-Reply-To: <c7e.fb9990.32a1c06b@aol.com>
References: <c7e.fb9990.32a1c06b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <e0e999680612010939h2648abc8ld01908f77a605a2@mail.gmail.com>

What makes you believe the problem is with your station and not the
analysis?

On 12/1/06, Gsdphotog at aol.com <Gsdphotog at aol.com> wrote:
>
>  Need suggestions.  For months dewpoint was reading correctly.  Now for
> the last approximately 3 weeks it is off (good old red X).  I know that the
> site is correct as I had help from CWOP getting it right. The location is
> correct, in fact my number points into my driveway it is so close.   I have
> tried changing the dewpoint settings in the setup part of the program.aDavis Vantage Pro with Weatherlink.  If it helps I am about 10 miles from
> Inman S.C. off 357 about a mile west of the Holly Springs Firehouse.
>
> It seems that no matter how I try to fix the numbers to make the info come
> out right, nothing works.  Tried resetting it when it was raining and that
> didn't help.  The post is in cement away from house and trees.  Tried a
> suggestion from Davis and that did not work, the last suggestion is that
> maybe I need to get a new Temperature/Humidity Sensor Board.  Would this be
> a logical next step?   Help!      June CW3462
>
> _______________________________________________
> wxqc mailing list
> Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
> To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
> http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc
>
> The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.
>
>
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From philip at gladstonefamily.net  Fri Dec  1 20:16:03 2006
From: philip at gladstonefamily.net (Philip Gladstone)
Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 21:16:03 -0500
Subject: [wxqc] Non-english speakers
Message-ID: <4570E1E3.9010808@gladstonefamily.net>

Are there any non-english speakers on the list? Somebody suggested that 
I provide native language versions of the wxqc pages -- and I've hacked 
something together to make use of the automatic google translation.

However, I can't tell if the translations are any good (or not). If they 
are any good, then I'd be inclined to default to the appropriate 
language, otherwise, I'd just provide a button to switch to that language.

Please contact me off list if you would be willing to take a look at one 
of the pages (French, Spanish, Italian, German, Portugese, Japanese), 
and give me an opinion.

Philip
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From wa4ikq at nevets.oau.org  Sat Dec  2 04:44:37 2006
From: wa4ikq at nevets.oau.org (Geoffrey Dick)
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 05:44:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [wxqc] ASOS BARO Drift
Message-ID: <m1GqSMH-000prUC@nevets.oau.org>


Subject: [wxqc] ASOS BARO Drift

I brought this subject up a few weeks back, and the consensus digressed to
the conclusion that ASOS barometer drift does occur.   Since this refector 
is supposed to be a discussion of weather quality issues, I believe it is 
the right forum to dig deeper to try to advance the science.  In my case, 
and likely other wxqc members, the question is how to use the relative 
numbers published daily by Gladstone Analysis?

I have been tracking the daily Gladstone summary errors for barometric 
pressure of 3 airports and 8 home weather stations within 12 miles of my 
location, and discovered an interesting phenomena that has yet to be 
explained.  The home weather stations appear stable, but the ASOS all 
drift, and sometimes in opposite directions a few tenths of a millibar.

Why should anyone care about this?   Many of us use the Airport weather
station data to align our home weather stations.   We rely on the ASOS
stations to be accurate, and traceable to a single source, the National
Bureau of Standards.  Aircraft, before flight departure, align their
altimeters to the local airport barometric settings to be prepared for
instrument flying, if needed, to land at another airport.  Below 1000 ft.
of altitude, one tenth of a millibar translates 3 feet of error, or
a hard landing in poor visability conditions.  In terms of setting our
home weather stations, we might align our station on November 4, to a
close ASOS airport like KORL, and find from daily Gladstone Analysis, 
that a week later on November 11, 12, and 13, our weather station is
reading a half millibar off.  That represents another 0.5 mb adjustment,
Should it be done? 

The below data for case study was taken during November 2006, a very 
stable time for quiesent weather in Central Florida.   All of the 
stations listed are within a circle of 12 miles radius, at nearly the
same elevation of my station, AS140 (WA4IKQ).  

>From daily Gladstone analysis of "Nearby Stations":

         Deviation in Barometric Pressure from AS140, Elevation 33m
      ASOS STATIONS    HOME WEATHER STATIONS
ELEV  34m  29m  17m    19m    30m   34m   35m    33m   30m   32m    34m  
DATE  KORL KMCO KSFB  CW2052 AP063 AP008 CW0572 AP520 AP723 CW4252 CW0927 
11/1   .2   .5   .6     .9    .1    .1    .7     .6    -.2    1.4     0 
11/2   .2   .5   .6    1.0    .1    .1    .8     .5    -.2    1.4    .1
11/3   .1   .5   .6    1.0    .1    .1    .8     .5    -.2    1.4     0
11/4   .0   .5   .5     .9    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.2    1.4   -.1
11/5   .0   .5   .5     .8    .1    .2    .7     .5    -.1    1.4   -.1
11/6   .0   .5   .5     .8    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.1    1.4   -.1
11/7   .2   .6   .7     .7    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.2    1.4   -.1
11/8   .4   .7   .9     .8    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.2    1.4   -.1
11/9   .4   .7   .9     .9    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.2    1.4   -.1
11/10  .4   .7  1.0     .9    .1    .1    .7     .4    -.2    1.4   -.1
11/11  .5   .7  1.0     .9    .1     0    .7     .4    -.3    1.4     0
11/12  .6   .7  1.0     .9    .1     0    .7     .4    -.3    1.4     0
11/13  .5   .7  1.0     .9    .1    .4    .7     .4    -.3    1.4     0
11/14  .5   .6  1.0     .8    .1    .5    .7     .4    -.3    1.4   -.1
11/15  .5   .6  1.0     .9    .1    .5    .7     .4    -.4    1.4     0
11/16  .4   .7  1.1     .9    .1    .5    .7     .4    -.3    1.4   -.1
11/17  .5   .7  1.1     .9    .1    .5    .7     .3    -.4    1.4   -.1
11/18  .6   .8  1.2     .8    .1    .5    .7     .3    -.4    1.4   -.1
11/19  .6   .7  1.2     .8    .1    .5    .6     .3    -.4    1.4   -.1
11/20  .6   .7  1.2     .7    .1    .5    .6     .3    -.5    1.4   -.1
11/21  .6   .7  1.1     .7    .1    .5    .6     .2    -.4    1.4   -.1
11/22  .6   .7  1.1     .7    .1    .5    .6     .2    -.5    1.4   -.1 
11/23  .5   .6  1.1     .7    .1    .5    .6     .2    -.6    1.4   -.1
11/24  .6   .7  1.1     .7    .1    .1    .6     .2    -.6    1.4   -.1
11/25  .5   .7  1.1     .7    .1    .1    .6     .2    -.5    1.4   -.1
11/26  .5   .7  1.0     .6    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5    1.4    .2 
11/27  .4   .7  1.1     .6    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5    1.4    .2
11/28  .5   .6  1.0     .6    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5    1.4    .2
11/29  .2   .5   .9     .5    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5    1.4    .2
11/30  .2   .2   .8     .5    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5    1.4    .2

Notice the barometric errors in the first 3 columns (ASOS) stations vary
more than the home weather stations, represented by the next 8 columns.

Notice some stations change when others do not.

Could this phenomena be from a leap forward in stability of home weather
instrumentation?   Could it be that the ASOS stations lack a controlled
temperature environment for the barometer, electronics, and station
power supplies, sitting in a non-airconditioned cabinet outdoors in an 
open field?  

I invite you to dig in and discuss this.

  
Kind regards,

Geoffrey Dick
WA4IKQ, AS140
Winter Park, FL 


From Evan.Bookbinder at noaa.gov  Sat Dec  2 11:27:25 2006
From: Evan.Bookbinder at noaa.gov (Evan Bookbinder)
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 11:27:25 -0600
Subject: [wxqc] ASOS BARO Drift
References: <m1GqSMH-000prUC@nevets.oau.org>
Message-ID: <0a8801c71637$22bd4470$6501a8c0@HPLAPTOP>

Geoffrey,

I am extremely confident that barometer drift does not occur. The ASOS unit 
consist of 3 barometers. If these barometers are not all within a very 
strict tolerance of each other, the altimeter setting  is removed from the 
observation and flagged as bad. The ASOS units are routinely calibrated with 
a DigiQuartz unit which has an accuracy to something like a ten thousandth 
of a millibar. These calibration checks are almost always just an official 
blessing that the units are working fine, and it's very rare that an 
adjustment would be necessary.

I find it interesting that in your analysis below you would set your station 
as "true" and everything else as a drift relative to you -- especially 
considering the overall poor accuracy and precision of home weather station 
barometers. Secondly, it's not clear as to what you're measuring below --  
sea level pressure, altimeter, etc.... There has been much previous 
discussion about the calculation differences used in the various reporting 
software for CWOP/APRS stations, which I would strongly encourage you go 
back and read.  You're not comparing apples to apples here.

With all that said, it would be helpful to actually take a flight or two 
with a licensed pilot. The Altimeter setting  in the cockpit is very 
important as you state, to maintain overall correct altitude, avoid terrain, 
etc... However, altimeter setting is only reported to 0.01" of mercury (or a 
resolution of 0.3 mb) -- or 9 feet based on your assessment. Hard landings 
are not the result of an altimeter setting adjustment. Non-IFR pilots are 
not flying in low visibility conditions, and different instrumentation is 
used to gage altitude above the runway at landing. I've been in my share of 
extremely hard landings on a crystal clear, 100 mile visibility day --- it 
generally amounts to pilot precision.

All in all, I would say your concerns are extremely unwarranted and there 
has not been a single known aircraft mishap that has been the result of ASOS 
barometer drift -- it doesn't exist (and can't because of the cross checks 
built into the system).

Respectfully,
Evan
NWS EAX


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Geoffrey Dick" <wa4ikq at nevets.oau.org>
To: <wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 4:44 AM
Subject: [wxqc] ASOS BARO Drift


>
> Subject: [wxqc] ASOS BARO Drift
>
> I brought this subject up a few weeks back, and the consensus digressed to
> the conclusion that ASOS barometer drift does occur.   Since this refector
> is supposed to be a discussion of weather quality issues, I believe it is
> the right forum to dig deeper to try to advance the science.  In my case,
> and likely other wxqc members, the question is how to use the relative
> numbers published daily by Gladstone Analysis?
>
> I have been tracking the daily Gladstone summary errors for barometric
> pressure of 3 airports and 8 home weather stations within 12 miles of my
> location, and discovered an interesting phenomena that has yet to be
> explained.  The home weather stations appear stable, but the ASOS all
> drift, and sometimes in opposite directions a few tenths of a millibar.
>
> Why should anyone care about this?   Many of us use the Airport weather
> station data to align our home weather stations.   We rely on the ASOS
> stations to be accurate, and traceable to a single source, the National
> Bureau of Standards.  Aircraft, before flight departure, align their
> altimeters to the local airport barometric settings to be prepared for
> instrument flying, if needed, to land at another airport.  Below 1000 ft.
> of altitude, one tenth of a millibar translates 3 feet of error, or
> a hard landing in poor visability conditions.  In terms of setting our
> home weather stations, we might align our station on November 4, to a
> close ASOS airport like KORL, and find from daily Gladstone Analysis,
> that a week later on November 11, 12, and 13, our weather station is
> reading a half millibar off.  That represents another 0.5 mb adjustment,
> Should it be done?
>
> The below data for case study was taken during November 2006, a very
> stable time for quiesent weather in Central Florida.   All of the
> stations listed are within a circle of 12 miles radius, at nearly the
> same elevation of my station, AS140 (WA4IKQ).
>
>>From daily Gladstone analysis of "Nearby Stations":
>
>         Deviation in Barometric Pressure from AS140, Elevation 33m
>      ASOS STATIONS    HOME WEATHER STATIONS
> ELEV  34m  29m  17m    19m    30m   34m   35m    33m   30m   32m    34m
> DATE  KORL KMCO KSFB  CW2052 AP063 AP008 CW0572 AP520 AP723 CW4252 CW0927
> 11/1   .2   .5   .6     .9    .1    .1    .7     .6    -.2    1.4     0
> 11/2   .2   .5   .6    1.0    .1    .1    .8     .5    -.2    1.4    .1
> 11/3   .1   .5   .6    1.0    .1    .1    .8     .5    -.2    1.4     0
> 11/4   .0   .5   .5     .9    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.2    1.4   -.1
> 11/5   .0   .5   .5     .8    .1    .2    .7     .5    -.1    1.4   -.1
> 11/6   .0   .5   .5     .8    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.1    1.4   -.1
> 11/7   .2   .6   .7     .7    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.2    1.4   -.1
> 11/8   .4   .7   .9     .8    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.2    1.4   -.1
> 11/9   .4   .7   .9     .9    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.2    1.4   -.1
> 11/10  .4   .7  1.0     .9    .1    .1    .7     .4    -.2    1.4   -.1
> 11/11  .5   .7  1.0     .9    .1     0    .7     .4    -.3    1.4     0
> 11/12  .6   .7  1.0     .9    .1     0    .7     .4    -.3    1.4     0
> 11/13  .5   .7  1.0     .9    .1    .4    .7     .4    -.3    1.4     0
> 11/14  .5   .6  1.0     .8    .1    .5    .7     .4    -.3    1.4   -.1
> 11/15  .5   .6  1.0     .9    .1    .5    .7     .4    -.4    1.4     0
> 11/16  .4   .7  1.1     .9    .1    .5    .7     .4    -.3    1.4   -.1
> 11/17  .5   .7  1.1     .9    .1    .5    .7     .3    -.4    1.4   -.1
> 11/18  .6   .8  1.2     .8    .1    .5    .7     .3    -.4    1.4   -.1
> 11/19  .6   .7  1.2     .8    .1    .5    .6     .3    -.4    1.4   -.1
> 11/20  .6   .7  1.2     .7    .1    .5    .6     .3    -.5    1.4   -.1
> 11/21  .6   .7  1.1     .7    .1    .5    .6     .2    -.4    1.4   -.1
> 11/22  .6   .7  1.1     .7    .1    .5    .6     .2    -.5    1.4   -.1
> 11/23  .5   .6  1.1     .7    .1    .5    .6     .2    -.6    1.4   -.1
> 11/24  .6   .7  1.1     .7    .1    .1    .6     .2    -.6    1.4   -.1
> 11/25  .5   .7  1.1     .7    .1    .1    .6     .2    -.5    1.4   -.1
> 11/26  .5   .7  1.0     .6    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5    1.4    .2
> 11/27  .4   .7  1.1     .6    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5    1.4    .2
> 11/28  .5   .6  1.0     .6    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5    1.4    .2
> 11/29  .2   .5   .9     .5    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5    1.4    .2
> 11/30  .2   .2   .8     .5    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5    1.4    .2
>
> Notice the barometric errors in the first 3 columns (ASOS) stations vary
> more than the home weather stations, represented by the next 8 columns.
>
> Notice some stations change when others do not.
>
> Could this phenomena be from a leap forward in stability of home weather
> instrumentation?   Could it be that the ASOS stations lack a controlled
> temperature environment for the barometer, electronics, and station
> power supplies, sitting in a non-airconditioned cabinet outdoors in an
> open field?
>
> I invite you to dig in and discuss this.
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Geoffrey Dick
> WA4IKQ, AS140
> Winter Park, FL
>
> _______________________________________________
> wxqc mailing list
> Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
> To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
> http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc
>
> The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.
> 


From wxqc at brianfeller.com  Sat Dec  2 16:17:40 2006
From: wxqc at brianfeller.com (Brian)
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 14:17:40 -0800
Subject: [wxqc] Anemometer Mast
Message-ID: <001101c7165f$aeba5620$6401a8c0@DESKTOP>

I really hate to beat a dead horse, but I was hoping for some fresh advice
on mounting an anemometer. 

 

I would like to place a mast on my house for the anemometer, but haven't
quite determined the best approach and/or what materials to use.

 

I would prefer to not use anything mounted to the roof itself if possible
(such as tripod). However, the gable where I would like to put it overhangs
the side of the house by about 18". I looked at Radio Shack and Home Depot
but didn't really see anything I thought would work (to attach to the side
of the house). Any suggestions on how I might be able to attach a mast to
the side of the house with an 18" overhang present? I would also prefer not
to bring it up all the way from the ground, as our bedroom window is there
and I would prefer to not see that every time I look out the window. 

 

Also, what materials should I/can I use for the mast? I think I saw mention
of PVC. Is that an option? Is it actually sturdy enough not to sway in the
wind? What other options should I be looking at. I'm not necessarily looking
for the most permanent or the cheapest options, just something middle of the
road to get the job done. I plan on having the anemometer about 7-10 feet
above the roofline. 

 

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.


Brian

 

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From steve at dimse.com  Sat Dec  2 16:34:04 2006
From: steve at dimse.com (Steve Dimse)
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 17:34:04 -0500
Subject: [wxqc] Anemometer Mast
In-Reply-To: <001101c7165f$aeba5620$6401a8c0@DESKTOP>
References: <001101c7165f$aeba5620$6401a8c0@DESKTOP>
Message-ID: <1CF56FE0-6310-48CE-9023-0D381F173AE2@dimse.com>


On Dec 2, 2006, at 5:17 PM, Brian wrote:

> I would prefer to not use anything mounted to the roof itself if  
> possible (such as tripod). However, the gable where I would like to  
> put it overhangs the side of the house by about 18?. I looked at  
> Radio Shack and Home Depot but didn?t really see anything I thought  
> would work (to attach to the side of the house). Any suggestions on  
> how I might be able to attach a mast to the side of the house with  
> an 18? overhang present? I would also prefer not to bring it up all  
> the way from the ground, as our bedroom window is there and I would  
> prefer to not see that every time I look out the window.

If it is just a gable, a foot or two high, you will have a very hard  
time without taking it down. Without two widely separated points it  
is hard to get a solid mounting. Your best hope would be to through- 
bolt the mast into the gable. Mostly it depends on how high the mast  
will be and what sort of winds you want it to survive.

> Also, what materials should I/can I use for the mast? I think I saw  
> mention of PVC. Is that an option? Is it actually sturdy enough not  
> to sway in the wind? What other options should I be looking at. I?m  
> not necessarily looking for the most permanent or the cheapest  
> options, just something middle of the road to get the job done. I  
> plan on having the anemometer about 7-10 feet above the roofline.

PVC is a possibility, depends on diameter. Certainly 6 inch would not  
sway (assuming you were able to mount it solidly), while half inch  
would sway far too much. What I use is 1.5 inch schedule 40, but by  
itself it is not strong enough. Adding a wooden closet rod dowel  
which fits nicely results in a very solid structure. My first  
survived about 10 years, including Hurricane Georges, and three near  
misses all with hurricane force gusts in 2005, before breaking in  
Wilma. The failure point was where a screw went through it to mount  
to a railing post on my sundeck, 10 years had rotted the wood at that  
point. The highest gust recorded was 102 before it broke, so even  
with rot it was pretty strong.

Steve K4HG

From steve at dimse.com  Sat Dec  2 16:37:43 2006
From: steve at dimse.com (Steve Dimse)
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 17:37:43 -0500
Subject: [wxqc] Anemometer Mast
In-Reply-To: <1CF56FE0-6310-48CE-9023-0D381F173AE2@dimse.com>
References: <001101c7165f$aeba5620$6401a8c0@DESKTOP>
	<1CF56FE0-6310-48CE-9023-0D381F173AE2@dimse.com>
Message-ID: <3325EC7E-92F1-4BB2-A9F8-44B9EEDAEA81@dimse.com>


On Dec 2, 2006, at 5:34 PM, Steve Dimse wrote:

>
> If it is just a gable, a foot or two high, you will have a very hard
> time without taking it down.

Maybe not clear, I mean not taking the mast down to the ground, or  
other mounting point a floor down.

Steve K4HG


From wxqc at brianfeller.com  Sat Dec  2 17:05:51 2006
From: wxqc at brianfeller.com (Brian)
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 15:05:51 -0800
Subject: [wxqc] Anemometer Mast
In-Reply-To: <3325EC7E-92F1-4BB2-A9F8-44B9EEDAEA81@dimse.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c71666$69b3ba10$6401a8c0@DESKTOP>

I just thought of a possible way to make it work with my gable...What if I
took a couple 2x4's and screwed them to the back side of the overhang? I
think a 4" off-setting mast holder would get the mast out far enough to not
hit the roof. 

Does this sound reasonable? Is there some sort of equation for determining
the spacing required for the mast brackets based on height above? For
example, if I want the mast to extend 10' beyond the brackets, how far apart
do the brackets need to be spaced apart below (which will also affect the
total length of mast)?

Brian


-----Original Message-----
From: wxqc-bounces at lists.gladstonefamily.net
[mailto:wxqc-bounces at lists.gladstonefamily.net] On Behalf Of Steve Dimse
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 2:38 PM
To: Discussion of weather data quality issues
Subject: Re: [wxqc] Anemometer Mast


On Dec 2, 2006, at 5:34 PM, Steve Dimse wrote:

>
> If it is just a gable, a foot or two high, you will have a very hard
> time without taking it down.

Maybe not clear, I mean not taking the mast down to the ground, or  
other mounting point a floor down.

Steve K4HG

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From ikishk+wxqc at gmail.com  Sat Dec  2 17:29:54 2006
From: ikishk+wxqc at gmail.com (Isaac Kishk (CW6261))
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 17:29:54 -0600
Subject: [wxqc] Anemometer Mast
In-Reply-To: <000a01c71666$69b3ba10$6401a8c0@DESKTOP>
References: <3325EC7E-92F1-4BB2-A9F8-44B9EEDAEA81@dimse.com>
	<000a01c71666$69b3ba10$6401a8c0@DESKTOP>
Message-ID: <f1559b000612021529q3bbaa854p8544dbcd6344520a@mail.gmail.com>

An old directv dish mount arm.  fit a mast into the other end.  thats
what I have on my roof, works well.  I'm sure you can gable mount it
to the side just as well.

On 12/2/06, Brian <wxqc at brianfeller.com> wrote:
> I just thought of a possible way to make it work with my gable...What if I
> took a couple 2x4's and screwed them to the back side of the overhang? I
> think a 4" off-setting mast holder would get the mast out far enough to not
> hit the roof.
>
> Does this sound reasonable? Is there some sort of equation for determining
> the spacing required for the mast brackets based on height above? For
> example, if I want the mast to extend 10' beyond the brackets, how far apart
> do the brackets need to be spaced apart below (which will also affect the
> total length of mast)?
>
> Brian
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wxqc-bounces at lists.gladstonefamily.net
> [mailto:wxqc-bounces at lists.gladstonefamily.net] On Behalf Of Steve Dimse
> Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 2:38 PM
> To: Discussion of weather data quality issues
> Subject: Re: [wxqc] Anemometer Mast
>
>
> On Dec 2, 2006, at 5:34 PM, Steve Dimse wrote:
>
> >
> > If it is just a gable, a foot or two high, you will have a very hard
> > time without taking it down.
>
> Maybe not clear, I mean not taking the mast down to the ground, or
> other mounting point a floor down.
>
> Steve K4HG
>
> _______________________________________________
> wxqc mailing list
> Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
> To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
> http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc
>
> The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.
>
> _______________________________________________
> wxqc mailing list
> Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
> To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
> http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc
>
> The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.
>


-- 
www.kishk.org

From steve at dimse.com  Sat Dec  2 17:30:42 2006
From: steve at dimse.com (Steve Dimse)
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 18:30:42 -0500
Subject: [wxqc] Anemometer Mast
In-Reply-To: <000a01c71666$69b3ba10$6401a8c0@DESKTOP>
References: <000a01c71666$69b3ba10$6401a8c0@DESKTOP>
Message-ID: <9C1C66E6-BC4F-424D-B483-C909CD87C984@dimse.com>


On Dec 2, 2006, at 6:05 PM, Brian wrote:

> Is there some sort of equation for determining
> the spacing required for the mast brackets based on height above? For
> example, if I want the mast to extend 10' beyond the brackets, how  
> far apart
> do the brackets need to be spaced apart below (which will also  
> affect the
> total length of mast)?

No formula, because it depends mostly on the strength of the mounting  
points. If the mounting points are perfectly rigid and unbreakable,  
one inch would be enough for any length of mast!

Essentially what you are creating is a lever, with one long arm  
(length of mast over top mounting point) and one short arm (between  
mounting points). The strain on the top mount (fulcrum) is primarily  
a function of the area of the mast and anemometer and the wind speed  
(input force). The bottom mount caries additional load from the force  
multiplication of the lever (output force). The greater the distance  
between the two mounts, the less advantage the lever creates, and the  
less strain is placed on the bottom mount.

Steve K4HG

From jimwc at frontiernet.net  Sat Dec  2 17:32:54 2006
From: jimwc at frontiernet.net (jim)
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 16:32:54 -0700
Subject: [wxqc] Anemometer Mast
In-Reply-To: <000a01c71666$69b3ba10$6401a8c0@DESKTOP>
Message-ID: <PJEKKKHEECGNEGGDAGBHKENHCDAA.jimwc@frontiernet.net>

Brian
I am not mounted on a gable but I used a radio shack chimney mount and 1"
emt conduit as the mast it is a little thicker walled than the normal
antenna mast, mine has with stood 50 mph winds so far. radio shack has a
antenna mount that attaches to the side of the house or eve also. there are
pictures on the QA web site for my station.
Jim
CW4367

-----Original Message-----
From: wxqc-bounces at lists.gladstonefamily.net
[mailto:wxqc-bounces at lists.gladstonefamily.net]On Behalf Of Brian
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 4:06 PM
To: 'Discussion of weather data quality issues'
Subject: Re: [wxqc] Anemometer Mast


I just thought of a possible way to make it work with my gable...What if I
took a couple 2x4's and screwed them to the back side of the overhang? I
think a 4" off-setting mast holder would get the mast out far enough to not
hit the roof.

Does this sound reasonable? Is there some sort of equation for determining
the spacing required for the mast brackets based on height above? For
example, if I want the mast to extend 10' beyond the brackets, how far apart
do the brackets need to be spaced apart below (which will also affect the
total length of mast)?

Brian


-----Original Message-----
From: wxqc-bounces at lists.gladstonefamily.net
[mailto:wxqc-bounces at lists.gladstonefamily.net] On Behalf Of Steve Dimse
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 2:38 PM
To: Discussion of weather data quality issues
Subject: Re: [wxqc] Anemometer Mast


On Dec 2, 2006, at 5:34 PM, Steve Dimse wrote:

>
> If it is just a gable, a foot or two high, you will have a very hard
> time without taking it down.

Maybe not clear, I mean not taking the mast down to the ground, or
other mounting point a floor down.

Steve K4HG

_______________________________________________
wxqc mailing list
Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc

The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.

_______________________________________________
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Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc

The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.




From steve at dimse.com  Sat Dec  2 17:42:38 2006
From: steve at dimse.com (Steve Dimse)
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 18:42:38 -0500
Subject: [wxqc] Anemometer Mast
In-Reply-To: <f1559b000612021529q3bbaa854p8544dbcd6344520a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3325EC7E-92F1-4BB2-A9F8-44B9EEDAEA81@dimse.com>
	<000a01c71666$69b3ba10$6401a8c0@DESKTOP>
	<f1559b000612021529q3bbaa854p8544dbcd6344520a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0303473F-A80A-43B7-BB07-7287FD0012C0@dimse.com>


On Dec 2, 2006, at 6:29 PM, Isaac Kishk (CW6261) wrote:

> An old directv dish mount arm.  fit a mast into the other end.  thats
> what I have on my roof, works well.  I'm sure you can gable mount it
> to the side just as well.

This would work if the mount is attached strongly enough, but you are  
creating a very high load on the mounting screws because of force  
multiplication. Imagine a wind blowing towards the house. The wind is  
pushing on the long mast, at the fulcrum of the top of the mount,  
then pulling out on the lower screws through a very short distance,  
perhaps 5 inches. If the wind is exerting 20 pounds of force at the  
top of an eight foot mast, there is about 400 pounds of force acting  
to pull the lower screws out of the wall.

Steve K4HG

From gerry.creager at tamu.edu  Sat Dec  2 17:45:34 2006
From: gerry.creager at tamu.edu (Gerry Creager N5JXS)
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 17:45:34 -0600
Subject: [wxqc] Anemometer Mast
In-Reply-To: <001101c7165f$aeba5620$6401a8c0@DESKTOP>
References: <001101c7165f$aeba5620$6401a8c0@DESKTOP>
Message-ID: <4572101E.60104@tamu.edu>

I used lag bolts to attach a rail found at Home Depot in the electrical 
section, known as UniDtrut, to the side of the house to form an anchor 
point.  My station extends ~2.8m above the peak of the house on 2 in. 
Sched. 40 PVC.  I reinforced the 2 in. PVC by inserting a piece of 1.5 
in PVC in and securing it with pvc shims at top and bottom.

Radio Shack used to carry a plate, held in the ground with a central 
spike that extended ~6 in. above the stake and would be pretty good to 
hold the 2 in. PVC in position, but you may have to shim it to maintain 
vertical.

Is it stable enough?  I can state from personal observation that the 
Finnish meteorological instrument maker, Vaisala, uses 2 in. PVC masts 
in their "Back Yard" test area.

gerry

Mecahnical anemometers are sensitive to not being plumb and level. 
Trying to do all of this from the bottom of the mount is problemmatical.

Brian wrote:
> I really hate to beat a dead horse, but I was hoping for some fresh 
> advice on mounting an anemometer.
> 
>  
> 
> I would like to place a mast on my house for the anemometer, but haven?t 
> quite determined the best approach and/or what materials to use.
> 
>  
> 
> I would prefer to not use anything mounted to the roof itself if 
> possible (such as tripod). However, the gable where I would like to put 
> it overhangs the side of the house by about 18?. I looked at Radio Shack 
> and Home Depot but didn?t really see anything I thought would work (to 
> attach to the side of the house). Any suggestions on how I might be able 
> to attach a mast to the side of the house with an 18? overhang present? 
> I would also prefer not to bring it up all the way from the ground, as 
> our bedroom window is there and I would prefer to not see that every 
> time I look out the window.
> 
>  
> 
> Also, what materials should I/can I use for the mast? I think I saw 
> mention of PVC. Is that an option? Is it actually sturdy enough not to 
> sway in the wind? What other options should I be looking at. I?m not 
> necessarily looking for the most permanent or the cheapest options, just 
> something middle of the road to get the job done. I plan on having the 
> anemometer about 7-10 feet above the roofline.
> 
>  
> 
> Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
> 
> 
> Brian
> 
>  
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> wxqc mailing list
> Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
> To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
> http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc
> 
> The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.

-- 
Gerry Creager -- gerry.creager at tamu.edu
Texas Mesonet -- AATLT, Texas A&M University	
Cell: 979.229.5301 Office: 979.458.4020 FAX: 979.862.3983
Office: 1700 Research Parkway Ste 160, TAMU, College Station, TX 77843

From ikishk+wxqc at gmail.com  Sat Dec  2 17:49:06 2006
From: ikishk+wxqc at gmail.com (Isaac Kishk (CW6261))
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 17:49:06 -0600
Subject: [wxqc] Anemometer Mast
In-Reply-To: <0303473F-A80A-43B7-BB07-7287FD0012C0@dimse.com>
References: <3325EC7E-92F1-4BB2-A9F8-44B9EEDAEA81@dimse.com>
	<000a01c71666$69b3ba10$6401a8c0@DESKTOP>
	<f1559b000612021529q3bbaa854p8544dbcd6344520a@mail.gmail.com>
	<0303473F-A80A-43B7-BB07-7287FD0012C0@dimse.com>
Message-ID: <f1559b000612021549v27da88a3xc908522640a0c825@mail.gmail.com>

It used to hold a 18" eliptical bowl that caught wind.  I'm sure it
can hold a poll with spinning flaps if secured properly.

On 12/2/06, Steve Dimse <steve at dimse.com> wrote:
>
> On Dec 2, 2006, at 6:29 PM, Isaac Kishk (CW6261) wrote:
>
> > An old directv dish mount arm.  fit a mast into the other end.  thats
> > what I have on my roof, works well.  I'm sure you can gable mount it
> > to the side just as well.
>
> This would work if the mount is attached strongly enough, but you are
> creating a very high load on the mounting screws because of force
> multiplication. Imagine a wind blowing towards the house. The wind is
> pushing on the long mast, at the fulcrum of the top of the mount,
> then pulling out on the lower screws through a very short distance,
> perhaps 5 inches. If the wind is exerting 20 pounds of force at the
> top of an eight foot mast, there is about 400 pounds of force acting
> to pull the lower screws out of the wall.
>
> Steve K4HG
> _______________________________________________
> wxqc mailing list
> Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
> To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
> http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc
>
> The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.
>


-- 
www.kishk.org

From steve at dimse.com  Sat Dec  2 17:57:08 2006
From: steve at dimse.com (Steve Dimse)
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 18:57:08 -0500
Subject: [wxqc] Anemometer Mast
In-Reply-To: <f1559b000612021549v27da88a3xc908522640a0c825@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3325EC7E-92F1-4BB2-A9F8-44B9EEDAEA81@dimse.com>
	<000a01c71666$69b3ba10$6401a8c0@DESKTOP>
	<f1559b000612021529q3bbaa854p8544dbcd6344520a@mail.gmail.com>
	<0303473F-A80A-43B7-BB07-7287FD0012C0@dimse.com>
	<f1559b000612021549v27da88a3xc908522640a0c825@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B9B5C872-CDAE-477A-A838-C75A8E50599A@dimse.com>


On Dec 2, 2006, at 6:49 PM, Isaac Kishk (CW6261) wrote:

> It used to hold a 18" eliptical bowl that caught wind.  I'm sure it
> can hold a poll with spinning flaps if secured properly.

I believe that was exactly my point, it must be secured well enough  
to withstand the high forces that will be generated. As I said, if it  
is perfectly secured, one inch is enough for any length of mast. My  
point is that forces multiply quickly, it is not necessarily intuitive.

Steve K4HG

From Evan.Bookbinder at noaa.gov  Sat Dec  2 18:10:43 2006
From: Evan.Bookbinder at noaa.gov (Evan Bookbinder)
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 18:10:43 -0600
Subject: [wxqc] Anemometer Mast
In-Reply-To: <4572101E.60104@tamu.edu>
References: <001101c7165f$aeba5620$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <4572101E.60104@tamu.edu>
Message-ID: <45721603.2000306@noaa.gov>

Gerry,

I'm curious as to how you and others anchored the PVC. In my experience 
with PVC (secured via a reducing couplet to a standard house exhaust), 
the PVC itself was so light that it swayed in the wind, resulting in the 
anemometer measuring some sort of "angular momentum" rather than the 
wind itself.

Evan


Gerry Creager N5JXS wrote:
> I used lag bolts to attach a rail found at Home Depot in the electrical 
> section, known as UniDtrut, to the side of the house to form an anchor 
> point.  My station extends ~2.8m above the peak of the house on 2 in. 
> Sched. 40 PVC.  I reinforced the 2 in. PVC by inserting a piece of 1.5 
> in PVC in and securing it with pvc shims at top and bottom.
>
> Radio Shack used to carry a plate, held in the ground with a central 
> spike that extended ~6 in. above the stake and would be pretty good to 
> hold the 2 in. PVC in position, but you may have to shim it to maintain 
> vertical.
>
> Is it stable enough?  I can state from personal observation that the 
> Finnish meteorological instrument maker, Vaisala, uses 2 in. PVC masts 
> in their "Back Yard" test area.
>
> gerry
>
> Mecahnical anemometers are sensitive to not being plumb and level. 
> Trying to do all of this from the bottom of the mount is problemmatical.
>
> Brian wrote:
>   
>> I really hate to beat a dead horse, but I was hoping for some fresh 
>> advice on mounting an anemometer.
>>
>>  
>>
>> I would like to place a mast on my house for the anemometer, but haven?t 
>> quite determined the best approach and/or what materials to use.
>>
>>  
>>
>> I would prefer to not use anything mounted to the roof itself if 
>> possible (such as tripod). However, the gable where I would like to put 
>> it overhangs the side of the house by about 18?. I looked at Radio Shack 
>> and Home Depot but didn?t really see anything I thought would work (to 
>> attach to the side of the house). Any suggestions on how I might be able 
>> to attach a mast to the side of the house with an 18? overhang present? 
>> I would also prefer not to bring it up all the way from the ground, as 
>> our bedroom window is there and I would prefer to not see that every 
>> time I look out the window.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Also, what materials should I/can I use for the mast? I think I saw 
>> mention of PVC. Is that an option? Is it actually sturdy enough not to 
>> sway in the wind? What other options should I be looking at. I?m not 
>> necessarily looking for the most permanent or the cheapest options, just 
>> something middle of the road to get the job done. I plan on having the 
>> anemometer about 7-10 feet above the roofline.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
>>
>>
>> Brian
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> wxqc mailing list
>> Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
>> To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
>> http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc
>>
>> The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.
>>     
>
>   

From lemonfrjoy at yahoo.com  Sat Dec  2 18:24:54 2006
From: lemonfrjoy at yahoo.com (Joy)
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 16:24:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [wxqc] Anemometer
Message-ID: <20061203002454.30193.qmail@web39712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

During the recent ice storm here in Missouri, my anemometer froze. It thawed out today, but for awhile, it was just giving the last reading before it froze.  I have it situated a distance away from my house.  Any ideas on keeping the anemometer from freezing?

Joy Lemmons
KB0YUP
AP918




 
____________________________________________________________________________________
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From steve at dimse.com  Sat Dec  2 18:29:36 2006
From: steve at dimse.com (Steve Dimse)
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 19:29:36 -0500
Subject: [wxqc] Anemometer
In-Reply-To: <20061203002454.30193.qmail@web39712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20061203002454.30193.qmail@web39712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <858A1985-FED9-4CA8-81AB-AA27A4BE53F6@dimse.com>


On Dec 2, 2006, at 7:24 PM, Joy wrote:

> During the recent ice storm here in Missouri, my anemometer froze.  
> It thawed out today, but for awhile, it was just giving the last  
> reading before it froze.  I have it situated a distance away from  
> my house.  Any ideas on keeping the anemometer from freezing?

Move to Florida? I never have a problem!

Seriously though, many manufacturers have a heated anemometer as an  
option. I suppose it would be possible to rig some sort of a home- 
brewed solution with a low voltage resistive heating element, but it  
would be difficult...

Steve K4HG


From Evan.Bookbinder at noaa.gov  Sat Dec  2 18:29:58 2006
From: Evan.Bookbinder at noaa.gov (Evan Bookbinder)
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 18:29:58 -0600
Subject: [wxqc] Anemometer
In-Reply-To: <20061203002454.30193.qmail@web39712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20061203002454.30193.qmail@web39712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <45721A86.70202@noaa.gov>

Unfortunately, that is the nature of the beast with moving parts (cup 
anemometers). The solution is to use a solid state ultrasonic anemometer 
that has no moving parts. Of course those don't come with home weather 
stations, but the old tried and true method of thawing them is to use a 
good ol' hair dryer. NWS technicians still use this technique on the few 
remaining cup anemometers in service. I guess you could rig an umbrella 
over the unit to keep the freezing rain off of it :))))

Evan in Lee's Summit


Joy wrote:
> During the recent ice storm here in Missouri, my anemometer froze. It 
> thawed out today, but for awhile, it was just giving the last reading 
> before it froze.  I have it situated a distance away from my house.  
> Any ideas on keeping the anemometer from freezing?
>
> Joy Lemmons
> KB0YUP
> AP918
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Cheap Talk? Check out 
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman8/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39663/*http://voice.yahoo.com> 
> Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> wxqc mailing list
> Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
> To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
> http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc
>
> The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.

From ikishk+wxqc at gmail.com  Sat Dec  2 18:45:15 2006
From: ikishk+wxqc at gmail.com (Isaac Kishk (CW6261))
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 18:45:15 -0600
Subject: [wxqc] Anemometer
In-Reply-To: <20061203002454.30193.qmail@web39712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20061203002454.30193.qmail@web39712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f1559b000612021645q635f3344r1adee832d1f3ee1b@mail.gmail.com>

wrap the non moving parts in heat tape and hope theres enough
radiation to reach the moving parts?

On 12/2/06, Joy <lemonfrjoy at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> During the recent ice storm here in Missouri, my anemometer froze. It thawed
> out today, but for awhile, it was just giving the last reading before it
> froze.  I have it situated a distance away from my house.  Any ideas on
> keeping the anemometer from freezing?
>
> Joy Lemmons
> KB0YUP
> AP918
>
>  ________________________________
> Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
> _______________________________________________
> wxqc mailing list
> Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
> To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
> http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc
>
> The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.
>
>


-- 
www.kishk.org

From brillig at gmail.com  Sat Dec  2 18:57:47 2006
From: brillig at gmail.com (Victor Engel)
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 18:57:47 -0600
Subject: [wxqc] Anemometer
In-Reply-To: <45721A86.70202@noaa.gov>
References: <20061203002454.30193.qmail@web39712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<45721A86.70202@noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <e0e999680612021657i3bb881ej6fb72486bc35981f@mail.gmail.com>

Are you serious? I almost replied in jest that one could climb up the roof
and attack the problem with a hair drier but that the wind from the hair
drier would throw off the data. Of course not having any data is throwing it
off, too.

On 12/2/06, Evan Bookbinder <Evan.Bookbinder at noaa.gov> wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, that is the nature of the beast with moving parts (cup
> anemometers). The solution is to use a solid state ultrasonic anemometer
> that has no moving parts. Of course those don't come with home weather
> stations, but the old tried and true method of thawing them is to use a
> good ol' hair dryer. NWS technicians still use this technique on the few
> remaining cup anemometers in service. I guess you could rig an umbrella
> over the unit to keep the freezing rain off of it :))))
>
> Evan in Lee's Summit
>
>
> Joy wrote:
> > During the recent ice storm here in Missouri, my anemometer froze. It
> > thawed out today, but for awhile, it was just giving the last reading
> > before it froze.  I have it situated a distance away from my house.
> > Any ideas on keeping the anemometer from freezing?
> >
> > Joy Lemmons
> > KB0YUP
> > AP918
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Cheap Talk? Check out
> > <
> http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman8/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39663/*http://voice.yahoo.com
> >
> > Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > wxqc mailing list
> > Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
> > To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
> > http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc
> >
> > The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.
> _______________________________________________
> wxqc mailing list
> Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
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From eholmes at aeneas.net  Sat Dec  2 18:57:29 2006
From: eholmes at aeneas.net (Eddie Holmes)
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 18:57:29 -0600
Subject: [wxqc] Anemometer
In-Reply-To: <45721A86.70202@noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <006501c71676$029c05c0$0201a8c0@EDDIESPC>

Be nice to have a de-icer spray that could go the distance! ;)

Eddie Holmes
CW4199
www.jacksonweather.net
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: wxqc-bounces at lists.gladstonefamily.net
[mailto:wxqc-bounces at lists.gladstonefamily.net] On Behalf Of Evan Bookbinder
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 6:30 PM
To: Discussion of weather data quality issues
Subject: Re: [wxqc] Anemometer

Unfortunately, that is the nature of the beast with moving parts (cup 
anemometers). The solution is to use a solid state ultrasonic anemometer 
that has no moving parts. Of course those don't come with home weather 
stations, but the old tried and true method of thawing them is to use a 
good ol' hair dryer. NWS technicians still use this technique on the few 
remaining cup anemometers in service. I guess you could rig an umbrella 
over the unit to keep the freezing rain off of it :))))

Evan in Lee's Summit


Joy wrote:
> During the recent ice storm here in Missouri, my anemometer froze. It 
> thawed out today, but for awhile, it was just giving the last reading 
> before it froze.  I have it situated a distance away from my house.  
> Any ideas on keeping the anemometer from freezing?
>
> Joy Lemmons
> KB0YUP
> AP918
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Cheap Talk? Check out 
>
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman8/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/ev
t=39663/*http://voice.yahoo.com> 
> Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> wxqc mailing list
> Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
> To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
> http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc
>
> The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.
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To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
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From flcyclone at tampabay.rr.com  Sat Dec  2 19:04:25 2006
From: flcyclone at tampabay.rr.com (Thomas Giella KN4LF)
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 20:04:25 -0500
Subject: [wxqc] ASOS Baro Drift
References: <mailman.22.1165088899.4465.wxqc@lists.gladstonefamily.net>
Message-ID: <002801c71676$faa50820$6401a8c0@thomas>

Geoffrey,

It's sad but true ASOS/AWOS stations will never produce the same long term data accuracy that the human observer produced in previous decades. The automatic equipment is over priced (like the proverbial $2000 toilet seat) and price is not synonymous with quality or accuracy. 

Equipment site exposure is often poor and equipment maintenance poor to nonexistent and the problem is not confined just to ASOS/AWOS stations only. Every level of the weather observation network in the U.S. is poorly maintained from first order stations down to COOP stations and this contributes to the false appearance of global warming.

I have personally visited dozens of ASOS, FAA manual, NWS first order and COOP stations over the many years and have always been aghast at the poor maintenance of the site and equipment. At the nearby Plant City, FL COOP station the aspirated instrument shelter for the MMTS is leaning at a 35 degree angle, under an oak tree and only a few feet from a busy 4 laned highway. It's been that way now for a number of years and it's exposure issue has been reported. At the nearby Lakeland Linder Airport the dewpoint readings coming from the FAA equipment have had a -5 deg. F dewpoint error for quite a number of years too.

Take Care,
Thomas F. Giella, KN4LF
Retired Meteorologist & Space Plasma Physicist
Lakeland, FL, USA
flycylone at tampabay.rr.com

NWS Tampa Bay, FL SKYWARN Observer #POL-10A
CWOP Station #AR692/KN4LF

Live Lakeland, FL Weather Observations: http://www.kn4lf.com/index1.html
Lakeland, FL Daily Climatological Weather Data Archive: http://www.kn4lf.com/kn4lf22.htm
November 2006 Lakeland, FL Daily Climatological Weather Observations http://www.kn4lf.com/kn4lf66.htm
Florida/US Raw Weather Forecasting Resource Links: http://www.kn4lf.com/kn4lf13.htm
Florida Daily Weather Discussion: http://www.kn4lf.com/flwx1.htm 
Man Induced Climate Change Refuted: http://www.kn4lf.com/globalwarminglie.htm
New Scientific Evidence for the Existence of God: http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/audio/newevidence.htm


  Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 05:44:37 -0500 (EST)
  From: wa4ikq at nevets.oau.org (Geoffrey Dick)
  Subject: [wxqc] ASOS BARO Drift
  To: wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
  Message-ID: <m1GqSMH-000prUC at nevets.oau.org>


  Subject: [wxqc] ASOS BARO Drift

  I brought this subject up a few weeks back, and the consensus digressed to
  the conclusion that ASOS barometer drift does occur.   Since this refector 
  is supposed to be a discussion of weather quality issues, I believe it is 
  the right forum to dig deeper to try to advance the science.  In my case, 
  and likely other wxqc members, the question is how to use the relative 
  numbers published daily by Gladstone Analysis?

  I have been tracking the daily Gladstone summary errors for barometric 
  pressure of 3 airports and 8 home weather stations within 12 miles of my 
  location, and discovered an interesting phenomena that has yet to be 
  explained.  The home weather stations appear stable, but the ASOS all 
  drift, and sometimes in opposite directions a few tenths of a millibar.

  Why should anyone care about this?   Many of us use the Airport weather
  station data to align our home weather stations.   We rely on the ASOS
  stations to be accurate, and traceable to a single source, the National
  Bureau of Standards.  Aircraft, before flight departure, align their
  altimeters to the local airport barometric settings to be prepared for
  instrument flying, if needed, to land at another airport.  Below 1000 ft.
  of altitude, one tenth of a millibar translates 3 feet of error, or
  a hard landing in poor visability conditions.  In terms of setting our
  home weather stations, we might align our station on November 4, to a
  close ASOS airport like KORL, and find from daily Gladstone Analysis, 
  that a week later on November 11, 12, and 13, our weather station is
  reading a half millibar off.  That represents another 0.5 mb adjustment,
  Should it be done? 

  The below data for case study was taken during November 2006, a very 
  stable time for quiesent weather in Central Florida.   All of the 
  stations listed are within a circle of 12 miles radius, at nearly the
  same elevation of my station, AS140 (WA4IKQ).  

  >From daily Gladstone analysis of "Nearby Stations":

           Deviation in Barometric Pressure from AS140, Elevation 33m
        ASOS STATIONS    HOME WEATHER STATIONS
  ELEV  34m  29m  17m    19m    30m   34m   35m    33m   30m   32m    34m  
  DATE  KORL KMCO KSFB  CW2052 AP063 AP008 CW0572 AP520 AP723 CW4252 CW0927 
  11/1   .2   .5   .6     .9    .1    .1    .7     .6    -.2    1.4     0 
  11/2   .2   .5   .6    1.0    .1    .1    .8     .5    -.2    1.4    .1
  11/3   .1   .5   .6    1.0    .1    .1    .8     .5    -.2    1.4     0
  11/4   .0   .5   .5     .9    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.2    1.4   -.1
  11/5   .0   .5   .5     .8    .1    .2    .7     .5    -.1    1.4   -.1
  11/6   .0   .5   .5     .8    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.1    1.4   -.1
  11/7   .2   .6   .7     .7    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.2    1.4   -.1
  11/8   .4   .7   .9     .8    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.2    1.4   -.1
  11/9   .4   .7   .9     .9    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.2    1.4   -.1
  11/10  .4   .7  1.0     .9    .1    .1    .7     .4    -.2    1.4   -.1
  11/11  .5   .7  1.0     .9    .1     0    .7     .4    -.3    1.4     0
  11/12  .6   .7  1.0     .9    .1     0    .7     .4    -.3    1.4     0
  11/13  .5   .7  1.0     .9    .1    .4    .7     .4    -.3    1.4     0
  11/14  .5   .6  1.0     .8    .1    .5    .7     .4    -.3    1.4   -.1
  11/15  .5   .6  1.0     .9    .1    .5    .7     .4    -.4    1.4     0
  11/16  .4   .7  1.1     .9    .1    .5    .7     .4    -.3    1.4   -.1
  11/17  .5   .7  1.1     .9    .1    .5    .7     .3    -.4    1.4   -.1
  11/18  .6   .8  1.2     .8    .1    .5    .7     .3    -.4    1.4   -.1
  11/19  .6   .7  1.2     .8    .1    .5    .6     .3    -.4    1.4   -.1
  11/20  .6   .7  1.2     .7    .1    .5    .6     .3    -.5    1.4   -.1
  11/21  .6   .7  1.1     .7    .1    .5    .6     .2    -.4    1.4   -.1
  11/22  .6   .7  1.1     .7    .1    .5    .6     .2    -.5    1.4   -.1 
  11/23  .5   .6  1.1     .7    .1    .5    .6     .2    -.6    1.4   -.1
  11/24  .6   .7  1.1     .7    .1    .1    .6     .2    -.6    1.4   -.1
  11/25  .5   .7  1.1     .7    .1    .1    .6     .2    -.5    1.4   -.1
  11/26  .5   .7  1.0     .6    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5    1.4    .2 
  11/27  .4   .7  1.1     .6    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5    1.4    .2
  11/28  .5   .6  1.0     .6    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5    1.4    .2
  11/29  .2   .5   .9     .5    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5    1.4    .2
  11/30  .2   .2   .8     .5    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5    1.4    .2

  Notice the barometric errors in the first 3 columns (ASOS) stations vary
  more than the home weather stations, represented by the next 8 columns.

  Notice some stations change when others do not.

  Could this phenomena be from a leap forward in stability of home weather
  instrumentation?   Could it be that the ASOS stations lack a controlled
  temperature environment for the barometer, electronics, and station
  power supplies, sitting in a non-airconditioned cabinet outdoors in an 
  open field?  

  I invite you to dig in and discuss this.

    
  Kind regards,

  Geoffrey Dick
  WA4IKQ, AS140
  Winter Park, FL 
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From Evan.Bookbinder at noaa.gov  Sat Dec  2 19:06:13 2006
From: Evan.Bookbinder at noaa.gov (Evan Bookbinder)
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 19:06:13 -0600
Subject: [wxqc] Anemometer
In-Reply-To: <e0e999680612021657i3bb881ej6fb72486bc35981f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20061203002454.30193.qmail@web39712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<45721A86.70202@noaa.gov>
	<e0e999680612021657i3bb881ej6fb72486bc35981f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45722305.3040009@noaa.gov>

Dead serious.

Not sure how you're throwing off the data -- you've already been 
reporting "Calm" for how long? I would of course (in the case of the 
Davis), de-ice the ISS first, remove the cover and unplug the anemometer 
first. Or you could simply hold the anemometer steady while you're 
de-icing it.

Evan

Victor Engel wrote:
> Are you serious? I almost replied in jest that one could climb up the 
> roof and attack the problem with a hair drier but that the wind from 
> the hair drier would throw off the data. Of course not having any data 
> is throwing it off, too.
>
> On 12/2/06, *Evan Bookbinder* <Evan.Bookbinder at noaa.gov 
> <mailto:Evan.Bookbinder at noaa.gov>> wrote:
>
>     Unfortunately, that is the nature of the beast with moving parts (cup
>     anemometers). The solution is to use a solid state ultrasonic
>     anemometer
>     that has no moving parts. Of course those don't come with home weather
>     stations, but the old tried and true method of thawing them is to
>     use a
>     good ol' hair dryer. NWS technicians still use this technique on
>     the few
>     remaining cup anemometers in service. I guess you could rig an
>     umbrella
>     over the unit to keep the freezing rain off of it :))))
>
>     Evan in Lee's Summit
>
>
>     Joy wrote:
>     > During the recent ice storm here in Missouri, my anemometer
>     froze. It
>     > thawed out today, but for awhile, it was just giving the last
>     reading
>     > before it froze.  I have it situated a distance away from my house.
>     > Any ideas on keeping the anemometer from freezing?
>     >
>     > Joy Lemmons
>     > KB0YUP
>     > AP918
>     >
>     >
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     > Cheap Talk? Check out
>     >
>     <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman8/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39663/*http://voice.yahoo.com
>     <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman8/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39663/*http://voice.yahoo.com>>
>     > Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
>     >
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > wxqc mailing list
>     > Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
>     <mailto:wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net>
>     > To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
>     > http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc
>     >
>     > The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.
>     _______________________________________________
>     wxqc mailing list
>     Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
>     <mailto:wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net>
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>
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>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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From jjames at jameshillfarm.com  Sat Dec  2 19:10:34 2006
From: jjames at jameshillfarm.com (John James)
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 17:10:34 -0800
Subject: [wxqc] Anemometer
In-Reply-To: <20061203002454.30193.qmail@web39712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20061203002454.30193.qmail@web39712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200612030110.kB31AjWZ002546@jameshillfarm.com>

Rig up an outdoor floodlight beneath it. Hook it up to a power source 
such that the extension cord leading to it is plugged into one of 
those "ice cube" plus that only turn on when the temp reaches 34 or 
32 or so. Let the light warm the thing and at least try its best to 
either fend off the problem or quickly reverse it.

//John

At 04:24 PM 12/2/2006, you wrote:
>During the recent ice storm here in Missouri, my anemometer froze. 
>It thawed out today, but for awhile, it was just giving the last 
>reading before it froze.  I have it situated a distance away from my 
>house.  Any ideas on keeping the anemometer from freezing?
>
>Joy Lemmons
>KB0YUP
>AP918
>
>
>Cheap Talk? 
><http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman8/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39663/*http://voice.yahoo.com>Check 
>out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
>_______________________________________________
>wxqc mailing list
>Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
>To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
>http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc
>
>The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John W. James
CW4661, CW4663
Web:  <http://www.jameshillfarm.com/>

Current weather conditions:  <IMG 
SRC="http://www.jameshillfarm.com/images/WeatherStripJamesHillFfarm.jpg">
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From Evan.Bookbinder at noaa.gov  Sat Dec  2 19:22:11 2006
From: Evan.Bookbinder at noaa.gov (Evan Bookbinder)
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 19:22:11 -0600
Subject: [wxqc] Anemometer
In-Reply-To: <200612030110.kB31AjWZ002546@jameshillfarm.com>
References: <20061203002454.30193.qmail@web39712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<200612030110.kB31AjWZ002546@jameshillfarm.com>
Message-ID: <457226C3.8000003@noaa.gov>

Excellent idea John!!

Evan

John James wrote:
> Rig up an outdoor floodlight beneath it. Hook it up to a power source 
> such that the extension cord leading to it is plugged into one of 
> those "ice cube" plus that only turn on when the temp reaches 34 or 32 
> or so. Let the light warm the thing and at least try its best to 
> either fend off the problem or quickly reverse it.
>
> //John
>
> At 04:24 PM 12/2/2006, you wrote:
>> During the recent ice storm here in Missouri, my anemometer froze. It 
>> thawed out today, but for awhile, it was just giving the last reading 
>> before it froze.  I have it situated a distance away from my house.  
>> Any ideas on keeping the anemometer from freezing?
>>
>> Joy Lemmons
>> KB0YUP
>> AP918
>>
>>
>> Cheap Talk? Check out 
>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman8/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39663/*http://voice.yahoo.com> 
>> Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
>> _______________________________________________
>> wxqc mailing list
>> Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
>> To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
>> http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc
>>
>> The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> John W. James
> CW4661, CW4663
> Web:  < http://www.jameshillfarm.com/>
>
> Current weather conditions:  <IMG 
> SRC="http://www.jameshillfarm.com/images/WeatherStripJamesHillFfarm.jpg">
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> wxqc mailing list
> Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
> To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
> http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc
>
> The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.

From ikishk+wxqc at gmail.com  Sat Dec  2 19:25:31 2006
From: ikishk+wxqc at gmail.com (Isaac Kishk (CW6261))
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 19:25:31 -0600
Subject: [wxqc] Anemometer
In-Reply-To: <200612030110.kB31AjWZ002546@jameshillfarm.com>
References: <20061203002454.30193.qmail@web39712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<200612030110.kB31AjWZ002546@jameshillfarm.com>
Message-ID: <f1559b000612021725y31e64ec0s5197ca3934f21ffa@mail.gmail.com>

oo, put a flag on it while yer at it! :)

On 12/2/06, John James <jjames at jameshillfarm.com> wrote:
>
>  Rig up an outdoor floodlight beneath it. Hook it up to a power source such
> that the extension cord leading to it is plugged into one of those "ice
> cube" plus that only turn on when the temp reaches 34 or 32 or so. Let the
> light warm the thing and at least try its best to either fend off the
> problem or quickly reverse it.
>
>  //John
>
>
>  At 04:24 PM 12/2/2006, you wrote:
>
> During the recent ice storm here in Missouri, my anemometer froze. It thawed
> out today, but for awhile, it was just giving the last reading before it
> froze.  I have it situated a distance away from my house.  Any ideas on
> keeping the anemometer from freezing?
>
>  Joy Lemmons
>  KB0YUP
>  AP918
>
>
>  Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
>  _______________________________________________
>  wxqc mailing list
>  Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
>  To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
>  http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc
>
>  The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  John W. James
>  CW4661, CW4663
>  Web:  < http://www.jameshillfarm.com/>
>
>  Current weather conditions:  <IMG
> SRC="http://www.jameshillfarm.com/images/WeatherStripJamesHillFfarm.jpg">
>
> _______________________________________________
> wxqc mailing list
> Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
> To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
> http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc
>
> The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.
>
>


-- 
www.kishk.org

From Evan.Bookbinder at noaa.gov  Sat Dec  2 19:28:31 2006
From: Evan.Bookbinder at noaa.gov (Evan Bookbinder)
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 19:28:31 -0600
Subject: [wxqc] ASOS Baro Drift
In-Reply-To: <002801c71676$faa50820$6401a8c0@thomas>
References: <mailman.22.1165088899.4465.wxqc@lists.gladstonefamily.net>
	<002801c71676$faa50820$6401a8c0@thomas>
Message-ID: <4572283F.7090701@noaa.gov>

Thomas,

Respectfully, this sounds like a load of political mantra that's not at 
all related to the topic at hand. If you feel the need to get something 
off your chest, this isn't the place or a forum to discuss the facts, 
myths or conjured ideas of global warming. This forum has prided itself 
on the wonderful membership of dedicated meteorologists, hobbyists, 
amateurs etc...who go well beyond their means to provide quality weather 
data to the free world -- that is the name of this forum, no??

To support your case, please find me an antique, manually read mercury 
barometer which is even within an order of magnitude of the 
accuracy/precision of the ASOS unit. I'm not saying that ASOS is the 
greatest thing since sliced bread (I miss the old human observation 
remarks too), but your statements are completely unqualified.

Your generalization that equipment is poorly or non-maintained is 
factually false.  NWS electronics technicians regularly visit the ASOS 
sites -- on the order of once every 1-2 months. Documentation of these 
visits, data quality checks, and the pristine siting of our equipment is 
all photographed and available. I am mildly curious as to how you've 
visited dozens of ASOS sites since security and runway clearance is 
required to access those sites -- generally held only by NWS/FAA 
technicians.

As for COOP sites, these sites also receive manual visits by 
hydrometeorological technicians at least twice yearly. Many old cotton 
region shelters are rotting, but I can assure you that the equipment 
inside them is state of the art and protected. The shelter need not end 
up in the Museum of Art, only reflect sunlight and allow ventilation 
through. Keep in mind that urbanization, tree growth, etc...is part of 
the evolving earth. While I wouldn't go placing a new site on a highway 
or under a tree, there's something to be said about preserving these old 
sites to see exactly what urban development can in fact DO to climatology.

With respect to the Lakeland site, I'm not aware of the identifier, but 
would be willing to look into this with you. If you have sufficient 
analysis showing a static long term bias, I'm sure the NWS would help 
you in working to get the FAA (or whoever the site owner is) to repair 
or replace the sensor.

While I'm on my soapbox, I would like to turn the subject and thank all 
the hams who participated in the SkyWARN Recognition Day special event 
over the last 24 hours. We made hundreds of contacts from Jamaica to 
Canada and New York to California. I spent 9 hours on the radio last 
night and had a blast!!

Best Regards,
Evan (WX2CHS -- SkyWARN special event station KC0SKY)




Thomas Giella KN4LF wrote:
> *Geoffrey*,
>  
> *It's sad but true ASOS/AWOS stations will never produce the same long 
> term data accuracy that the human observer produced in previous 
> decades. The automatic equipment is over priced (like the proverbial 
> $2000 toilet seat) and price is not synonymous with quality or accuracy. *
> ** 
> *Equipment site exposure is often poor and equipment maintenance poor 
> to nonexistent and the problem is not confined just to ASOS/AWOS 
> stations only. **Every level of the weather observation network in the 
> U.S. is poorly maintained from first order stations down to COOP 
> stations and this contributes to the false appearance of global warming.*
> ** 
> *I have personally visited dozens of ASOS, FAA manual, NWS first order 
> and COOP stations over the many years and have always been aghast at 
> the poor maintenance of the site and equipment. At the nearby Plant 
> City, FL COOP station the aspirated instrument shelter for the MMTS is 
> leaning at a 35 degree angle, under an oak tree and only a few feet 
> from a busy 4 laned highway. It's been that way now for a number of 
> years and it's exposure issue has been reported. **At the nearby 
> Lakeland Linder Airport the dewpoint readings coming from the FAA 
> equipment have had a -5 deg. F dewpoint error for quite a number of 
> years too.*
> ** 
> *Take Care,
> Thomas F. Giella, KN4LF
> Retired Meteorologist & Space Plasma Physicist
> Lakeland, FL, USA
> flycylone at tampabay.rr.com <mailto:flycylone at tampabay.rr.com>*
>  
> *NWS Tampa Bay, FL SKYWARN Observer #POL-10A
> CWOP Station #AR692/KN4LF*
>  
> *Live Lakeland, FL Weather Observations: http://www.kn4lf.com/index1.html
> Lakeland, FL Daily Climatological Weather Data Archive: 
> http://www.kn4lf.com/kn4lf22.htm
> November 2006 Lakeland, FL Daily Climatological Weather Observations 
> http://www.kn4lf.com/kn4lf66.htm
> Florida/US Raw Weather Forecasting Resource Links: 
> http://www.kn4lf.com/kn4lf13.htm
> Florida Daily Weather Discussion: http://www.kn4lf.com/flwx1.htm
> Man Induced Climate Change Refuted: 
> http://www.kn4lf.com/globalwarminglie.htm
> New Scientific Evidence for the Existence of God: 
> http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/audio/newevidence.htm*
>
>
>
>     Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 05:44:37 -0500 (EST)
>     From: wa4ikq at nevets.oau.org <mailto:wa4ikq at nevets.oau.org>
>     (Geoffrey Dick)
>     Subject: [wxqc] ASOS BARO Drift
>     To: wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
>     <mailto:wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net>
>     Message-ID: <m1GqSMH-000prUC at nevets.oau.org
>     <mailto:m1GqSMH-000prUC at nevets.oau.org>>
>
>
>     Subject: [wxqc] ASOS BARO Drift
>
>     I brought this subject up a few weeks back, and the consensus
>     digressed to
>     the conclusion that ASOS barometer drift does occur.   Since this
>     refector
>     is supposed to be a discussion of weather quality issues, I
>     believe it is
>     the right forum to dig deeper to try to advance the science.  In
>     my case,
>     and likely other wxqc members, the question is how to use the
>     relative
>     numbers published daily by Gladstone Analysis?
>
>     I have been tracking the daily Gladstone summary errors for
>     barometric
>     pressure of 3 airports and 8 home weather stations within 12 miles
>     of my
>     location, and discovered an interesting phenomena that has yet to be
>     explained.  The home weather stations appear stable, but the ASOS all
>     drift, and sometimes in opposite directions a few tenths of a
>     millibar.
>
>     Why should anyone care about this?   Many of us use the Airport
>     weather
>     station data to align our home weather stations.   We rely on the ASOS
>     stations to be accurate, and traceable to a single source, the
>     National
>     Bureau of Standards.  Aircraft, before flight departure, align their
>     altimeters to the local airport barometric settings to be prepared for
>     instrument flying, if needed, to land at another airport.  Below
>     1000 ft.
>     of altitude, one tenth of a millibar translates 3 feet of error, or
>     a hard landing in poor visability conditions.  In terms of setting our
>     home weather stations, we might align our station on November 4, to a
>     close ASOS airport like KORL, and find from daily Gladstone Analysis,
>     that a week later on November 11, 12, and 13, our weather station is
>     reading a half millibar off.  That represents another 0.5 mb
>     adjustment,
>     Should it be done?
>
>     The below data for case study was taken during November 2006, a very
>     stable time for quiesent weather in Central Florida.   All of the
>     stations listed are within a circle of 12 miles radius, at nearly the
>     same elevation of my station, AS140 (WA4IKQ). 
>
>     >From daily Gladstone analysis of "Nearby Stations":
>
>              Deviation in Barometric Pressure from AS140, Elevation 33m
>           ASOS STATIONS    HOME WEATHER STATIONS
>     ELEV  34m  29m  17m    19m    30m   34m   35m    33m   30m  
>     32m    34m 
>     DATE  KORL KMCO KSFB  CW2052 AP063 AP008 CW0572 AP520 AP723 CW4252
>     CW0927
>     11/1   .2   .5   .6     .9    .1    .1    .7     .6    -.2   
>     1.4     0
>     11/2   .2   .5   .6    1.0    .1    .1    .8     .5    -.2   
>     1.4    .1
>     11/3   .1   .5   .6    1.0    .1    .1    .8     .5    -.2   
>     1.4     0
>     11/4   .0   .5   .5     .9    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.2   
>     1.4   -.1
>     11/5   .0   .5   .5     .8    .1    .2    .7     .5    -.1   
>     1.4   -.1
>     11/6   .0   .5   .5     .8    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.1   
>     1.4   -.1
>     11/7   .2   .6   .7     .7    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.2   
>     1.4   -.1
>     11/8   .4   .7   .9     .8    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.2   
>     1.4   -.1
>     11/9   .4   .7   .9     .9    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.2   
>     1.4   -.1
>     11/10  .4   .7  1.0     .9    .1    .1    .7     .4    -.2   
>     1.4   -.1
>     11/11  .5   .7  1.0     .9    .1     0    .7     .4    -.3   
>     1.4     0
>     11/12  .6   .7  1.0     .9    .1     0    .7     .4    -.3   
>     1.4     0
>     11/13  .5   .7  1.0     .9    .1    .4    .7     .4    -.3   
>     1.4     0
>     11/14  .5   .6  1.0     .8    .1    .5    .7     .4    -.3   
>     1.4   -.1
>     11/15  .5   .6  1.0     .9    .1    .5    .7     .4    -.4   
>     1.4     0
>     11/16  .4   .7  1.1     .9    .1    .5    .7     .4    -.3   
>     1.4   -.1
>     11/17  .5   .7  1.1     .9    .1    .5    .7     .3    -.4   
>     1.4   -.1
>     11/18  .6   .8  1.2     .8    .1    .5    .7     .3    -.4   
>     1.4   -.1
>     11/19  .6   .7  1.2     .8    .1    .5    .6     .3    -.4   
>     1.4   -.1
>     11/20  .6   .7  1.2     .7    .1    .5    .6     .3    -.5   
>     1.4   -.1
>     11/21  .6   .7  1.1     .7    .1    .5    .6     .2    -.4   
>     1.4   -.1
>     11/22  .6   .7  1.1     .7    .1    .5    .6     .2    -.5   
>     1.4   -.1
>     11/23  .5   .6  1.1     .7    .1    .5    .6     .2    -.6   
>     1.4   -.1
>     11/24  .6   .7  1.1     .7    .1    .1    .6     .2    -.6   
>     1.4   -.1
>     11/25  .5   .7  1.1     .7    .1    .1    .6     .2    -.5   
>     1.4   -.1
>     11/26  .5   .7  1.0     .6    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5   
>     1.4    .2
>     11/27  .4   .7  1.1     .6    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5   
>     1.4    .2
>     11/28  .5   .6  1.0     .6    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5   
>     1.4    .2
>     11/29  .2   .5   .9     .5    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5   
>     1.4    .2
>     11/30  .2   .2   .8     .5    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5   
>     1.4    .2
>
>     Notice the barometric errors in the first 3 columns (ASOS)
>     stations vary
>     more than the home weather stations, represented by the next 8
>     columns.
>
>     Notice some stations change when others do not.
>
>     Could this phenomena be from a leap forward in stability of home
>     weather
>     instrumentation?   Could it be that the ASOS stations lack a
>     controlled
>     temperature environment for the barometer, electronics, and station
>     power supplies, sitting in a non-airconditioned cabinet outdoors
>     in an
>     open field? 
>
>     I invite you to dig in and discuss this.
>
>      
>     Kind regards,
>
>     Geoffrey Dick
>     WA4IKQ, AS140
>     Winter Park, FL
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> wxqc mailing list
> Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
> To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
> http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc
>
> The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.

From lemonfrjoy at yahoo.com  Sat Dec  2 19:42:49 2006
From: lemonfrjoy at yahoo.com (Joy)
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 17:42:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [wxqc] Anemometer
Message-ID: <20061203014249.65562.qmail@web39704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hmm, I'll have to go looking for a 50 ft. outdoor type extension cord, and see if it will reach to the station.  Thanks for the idea.  When I read this to my husband, he suggested a Brock-a-brella for it.  Thinks he's funny...

Joy



 
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From brillig at gmail.com  Sat Dec  2 19:53:30 2006
From: brillig at gmail.com (Victor Engel)
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 19:53:30 -0600
Subject: [wxqc] Anemometer
In-Reply-To: <45722305.3040009@noaa.gov>
References: <20061203002454.30193.qmail@web39712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<45721A86.70202@noaa.gov>
	<e0e999680612021657i3bb881ej6fb72486bc35981f@mail.gmail.com>
	<45722305.3040009@noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <e0e999680612021753q6083a95fxa667b4613340d8b4@mail.gmail.com>

It was intended as a joke -- the hair drier blows the anemometer making it
whirl....

On 12/2/06, Evan Bookbinder <Evan.Bookbinder at noaa.gov> wrote:
>
> Dead serious.
>
> Not sure how you're throwing off the data -- you've already been
> reporting "Calm" for how long? I would of course (in the case of the
> Davis), de-ice the ISS first, remove the cover and unplug the anemometer
> first. Or you could simply hold the anemometer steady while you're
> de-icing it.
>
> Evan
>
> Victor Engel wrote:
> > Are you serious? I almost replied in jest that one could climb up the
> > roof and attack the problem with a hair drier but that the wind from
> > the hair drier would throw off the data. Of course not having any data
> > is throwing it off, too.
> >
> > On 12/2/06, *Evan Bookbinder* <Evan.Bookbinder at noaa.gov
> > <mailto:Evan.Bookbinder at noaa.gov>> wrote:
> >
> >     Unfortunately, that is the nature of the beast with moving parts
> (cup
> >     anemometers). The solution is to use a solid state ultrasonic
> >     anemometer
> >     that has no moving parts. Of course those don't come with home
> weather
> >     stations, but the old tried and true method of thawing them is to
> >     use a
> >     good ol' hair dryer. NWS technicians still use this technique on
> >     the few
> >     remaining cup anemometers in service. I guess you could rig an
> >     umbrella
> >     over the unit to keep the freezing rain off of it :))))
> >
> >     Evan in Lee's Summit
> >
> >
> >     Joy wrote:
> >     > During the recent ice storm here in Missouri, my anemometer
> >     froze. It
> >     > thawed out today, but for awhile, it was just giving the last
> >     reading
> >     > before it froze.  I have it situated a distance away from my
> house.
> >     > Any ideas on keeping the anemometer from freezing?
> >     >
> >     > Joy Lemmons
> >     > KB0YUP
> >     > AP918
> >     >
> >     >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >     > Cheap Talk? Check out
> >     >
> >     <
> http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman8/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39663/*http://voice.yahoo.com
> >     <
> http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman8/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39663/*http://voice.yahoo.com
> >>
> >     > Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
> >     >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >     >
> >     > _______________________________________________
> >     > wxqc mailing list
> >     > Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
> >     <mailto:wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net>
> >     > To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
> >     > http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc
> >     >
> >     > The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.
> >     _______________________________________________
> >     wxqc mailing list
> >     Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
> >     <mailto:wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net>
> >     To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
> >     http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc
> >     <http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc>
> >
> >     The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > wxqc mailing list
> > Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
> > To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
> > http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc
> >
> > The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.
> _______________________________________________
> wxqc mailing list
> Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
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From gerry.creager at tamu.edu  Sat Dec  2 20:41:51 2006
From: gerry.creager at tamu.edu (Gerry Creager N5JXS)
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 20:41:51 -0600
Subject: [wxqc] Anemometer Mast
In-Reply-To: <45721603.2000306@noaa.gov>
References: <001101c7165f$aeba5620$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <4572101E.60104@tamu.edu>
	<45721603.2000306@noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <4572396F.9000709@tamu.edu>

Evan,

There are a couple of things at play here.

1.  I'm anchoring to the gable of the roof and not to a roof vent.  Roof 
vents are too poorly anchored to support much of anything.  Second, I 
use UniStrut and lag bolts to anchor to the structure, then pipe hangers 
to attach PVC to the UniStrut at two places.  I've tied two howizontal 
pieces of UniStrut together into a solid physical structure by attaching 
two vertcal members between the horizontal members.  Third, while I use 
Sched. 40 PVC I reinforce the tubing with an internal piece of PVC, 
similar to the strengthener Steve Dimse mentioned.  I don't use wood 
because of the potential for it to become saturated and cause problems 
with expansion/contraction.

I'd not recommend this for more than a single length of PVC (3m/10ft) 
but so far it's working for me.  Vaisala does it because it's cheap and 
easy.

Also: I use the Vaisala WXT-510 Weather Transmitter and not a mechanical 
anemometer.  This allows me to better align  the system with north.

I consider this a temporary set-up, too.  I'm emplacing a 45 ft of 
semirigid conduit to support a wireless ethernet test facility and the 
WXT-510 will go atop that, which will give me better clearance of 
surrounding tree obstructiuon.  That will be a bit harder to turn to 
true up the direction but the design to acommodate it is already in place.

gerry

Evan Bookbinder wrote:
> Gerry,
> 
> I'm curious as to how you and others anchored the PVC. In my experience 
> with PVC (secured via a reducing couplet to a standard house exhaust), 
> the PVC itself was so light that it swayed in the wind, resulting in the 
> anemometer measuring some sort of "angular momentum" rather than the 
> wind itself.
> 
> Evan
> 
> 
> Gerry Creager N5JXS wrote:
> 
>>I used lag bolts to attach a rail found at Home Depot in the electrical 
>>section, known as UniDtrut, to the side of the house to form an anchor 
>>point.  My station extends ~2.8m above the peak of the house on 2 in. 
>>Sched. 40 PVC.  I reinforced the 2 in. PVC by inserting a piece of 1.5 
>>in PVC in and securing it with pvc shims at top and bottom.
>>
>>Radio Shack used to carry a plate, held in the ground with a central 
>>spike that extended ~6 in. above the stake and would be pretty good to 
>>hold the 2 in. PVC in position, but you may have to shim it to maintain 
>>vertical.
>>
>>Is it stable enough?  I can state from personal observation that the 
>>Finnish meteorological instrument maker, Vaisala, uses 2 in. PVC masts 
>>in their "Back Yard" test area.
>>
>>gerry
>>
>>Mecahnical anemometers are sensitive to not being plumb and level. 
>>Trying to do all of this from the bottom of the mount is problemmatical.
>>
>>Brian wrote:
>>  
>>
>>>I really hate to beat a dead horse, but I was hoping for some fresh 
>>>advice on mounting an anemometer.
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>I would like to place a mast on my house for the anemometer, but haven?t 
>>>quite determined the best approach and/or what materials to use.
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>I would prefer to not use anything mounted to the roof itself if 
>>>possible (such as tripod). However, the gable where I would like to put 
>>>it overhangs the side of the house by about 18?. I looked at Radio Shack 
>>>and Home Depot but didn?t really see anything I thought would work (to 
>>>attach to the side of the house). Any suggestions on how I might be able 
>>>to attach a mast to the side of the house with an 18? overhang present? 
>>>I would also prefer not to bring it up all the way from the ground, as 
>>>our bedroom window is there and I would prefer to not see that every 
>>>time I look out the window.
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>Also, what materials should I/can I use for the mast? I think I saw 
>>>mention of PVC. Is that an option? Is it actually sturdy enough not to 
>>>sway in the wind? What other options should I be looking at. I?m not 
>>>necessarily looking for the most permanent or the cheapest options, just 
>>>something middle of the road to get the job done. I plan on having the 
>>>anemometer about 7-10 feet above the roofline.
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
>>>
>>>
>>>Brian
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>wxqc mailing list
>>>Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
>>>To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
>>>http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc
>>>
>>>The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.
>>>    
>>
>>  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> wxqc mailing list
> Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
> To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
> http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc
> 
> The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.

-- 
Gerry Creager -- gerry.creager at tamu.edu
Texas Mesonet -- AATLT, Texas A&M University	
Cell: 979.229.5301 Office: 979.458.4020 FAX: 979.862.3983
Office: 1700 Research Parkway Ste 160, TAMU, College Station, TX 77843

From gerry.creager at tamu.edu  Sat Dec  2 20:45:12 2006
From: gerry.creager at tamu.edu (Gerry Creager N5JXS)
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 20:45:12 -0600
Subject: [wxqc] Anemometer
In-Reply-To: <20061203002454.30193.qmail@web39712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20061203002454.30193.qmail@web39712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <45723A38.20506@tamu.edu>

Heat. I have a heated W-425 sonic anemometer that's good down to ~-20F. 
  However that's not a good home solution.  That said, the -425's the 
NWS is using for the new AWOS upgrade are real high temperature models, 
modified beyond the basic Vaisala spec (and Vaisala is located in 
Helsenki; think of THEIR winters...).

I'd suggest that the software folks need to allow some method to 
indicate an invalid reading, when the owner applies a "switch" 
(hardware? software?) upon seeing a failure.

gerry

Joy wrote:
> During the recent ice storm here in Missouri, my anemometer froze. It 
> thawed out today, but for awhile, it was just giving the last reading 
> before it froze.  I have it situated a distance away from my house.  Any 
> ideas on keeping the anemometer from freezing?
> 
> Joy Lemmons
> KB0YUP
> AP918
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Cheap Talk? Check out 
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman8/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39663/*http://voice.yahoo.com> 
> Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> wxqc mailing list
> Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
> To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
> http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc
> 
> The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.

-- 
Gerry Creager -- gerry.creager at tamu.edu
Texas Mesonet -- AATLT, Texas A&M University	
Cell: 979.229.5301 Office: 979.458.4020 FAX: 979.862.3983
Office: 1700 Research Parkway Ste 160, TAMU, College Station, TX 77843

From sam at wa4phy.net  Sat Dec  2 20:46:14 2006
From: sam at wa4phy.net (Sam Drinkard)
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 21:46:14 -0500
Subject: [wxqc] ASOS Baro Drift
In-Reply-To: <4572283F.7090701@noaa.gov>
References: <mailman.22.1165088899.4465.wxqc@lists.gladstonefamily.net>	<002801c71676$faa50820$6401a8c0@thomas>
	<4572283F.7090701@noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <45723A76.2000706@wa4phy.net>

Evan,

    Not trying to fan the fire, but I can point you to an ASOS station 
that is NOT maintained by NWS, and is, in fact off on altimeter.  Was at 
the CAE NWS office this very day, and asked about the discrepancy, and I 
was told KHQU (Thomson, GA) is not an NWS facility, and does not come 
under their control, but is shown on all the AWIPS terms just like any 
other.  Using the MADIS surface obs page, take a look at the diffs 
between KHQU and KDNL / KAGS.  My POC at CAE told me they know  it's 
there, and take it with a grain of salt.  So, the question begs, how 
many other ASOS / AWOS stations are of like kind?

Sam

Evan Bookbinder wrote:
> Thomas,
>
> Respectfully, this sounds like a load of political mantra that's not at 
> all related to the topic at hand. If you feel the need to get something 
> off your chest, this isn't the place or a forum to discuss the facts, 
> myths or conjured ideas of global warming. This forum has prided itself 
> on the wonderful membership of dedicated meteorologists, hobbyists, 
> amateurs etc...who go well beyond their means to provide quality weather 
> data to the free world -- that is the name of this forum, no??
>
> To support your case, please find me an antique, manually read mercury 
> barometer which is even within an order of magnitude of the 
> accuracy/precision of the ASOS unit. I'm not saying that ASOS is the 
> greatest thing since sliced bread (I miss the old human observation 
> remarks too), but your statements are completely unqualified.
>
> Your generalization that equipment is poorly or non-maintained is 
> factually false.  NWS electronics technicians regularly visit the ASOS 
> sites -- on the order of once every 1-2 months. Documentation of these 
> visits, data quality checks, and the pristine siting of our equipment is 
> all photographed and available. I am mildly curious as to how you've 
> visited dozens of ASOS sites since security and runway clearance is 
> required to access those sites -- generally held only by NWS/FAA 
> technicians.
>
> As for COOP sites, these sites also receive manual visits by 
> hydrometeorological technicians at least twice yearly. Many old cotton 
> region shelters are rotting, but I can assure you that the equipment 
> inside them is state of the art and protected. The shelter need not end 
> up in the Museum of Art, only reflect sunlight and allow ventilation 
> through. Keep in mind that urbanization, tree growth, etc...is part of 
> the evolving earth. While I wouldn't go placing a new site on a highway 
> or under a tree, there's something to be said about preserving these old 
> sites to see exactly what urban development can in fact DO to climatology.
>
> With respect to the Lakeland site, I'm not aware of the identifier, but 
> would be willing to look into this with you. If you have sufficient 
> analysis showing a static long term bias, I'm sure the NWS would help 
> you in working to get the FAA (or whoever the site owner is) to repair 
> or replace the sensor.
>
> While I'm on my soapbox, I would like to turn the subject and thank all 
> the hams who participated in the SkyWARN Recognition Day special event 
> over the last 24 hours. We made hundreds of contacts from Jamaica to 
> Canada and New York to California. I spent 9 hours on the radio last 
> night and had a blast!!
>
> Best Regards,
> Evan (WX2CHS -- SkyWARN special event station KC0SKY)
>
>
>
>
> Thomas Giella KN4LF wrote:
>   
>> *Geoffrey*,
>>  
>> *It's sad but true ASOS/AWOS stations will never produce the same long 
>> term data accuracy that the human observer produced in previous 
>> decades. The automatic equipment is over priced (like the proverbial 
>> $2000 toilet seat) and price is not synonymous with quality or accuracy. *
>> ** 
>> *Equipment site exposure is often poor and equipment maintenance poor 
>> to nonexistent and the problem is not confined just to ASOS/AWOS 
>> stations only. **Every level of the weather observation network in the 
>> U.S. is poorly maintained from first order stations down to COOP 
>> stations and this contributes to the false appearance of global warming.*
>> ** 
>> *I have personally visited dozens of ASOS, FAA manual, NWS first order 
>> and COOP stations over the many years and have always been aghast at 
>> the poor maintenance of the site and equipment. At the nearby Plant 
>> City, FL COOP station the aspirated instrument shelter for the MMTS is 
>> leaning at a 35 degree angle, under an oak tree and only a few feet 
>> from a busy 4 laned highway. It's been that way now for a number of 
>> years and it's exposure issue has been reported. **At the nearby 
>> Lakeland Linder Airport the dewpoint readings coming from the FAA 
>> equipment have had a -5 deg. F dewpoint error for quite a number of 
>> years too.*
>> ** 
>> *Take Care,
>> Thomas F. Giella, KN4LF
>> Retired Meteorologist & Space Plasma Physicist
>> Lakeland, FL, USA
>> flycylone at tampabay.rr.com <mailto:flycylone at tampabay.rr.com>*
>>  
>> *NWS Tampa Bay, FL SKYWARN Observer #POL-10A
>> CWOP Station #AR692/KN4LF*
>>  
>> *Live Lakeland, FL Weather Observations: http://www.kn4lf.com/index1.html
>> Lakeland, FL Daily Climatological Weather Data Archive: 
>> http://www.kn4lf.com/kn4lf22.htm
>> November 2006 Lakeland, FL Daily Climatological Weather Observations 
>> http://www.kn4lf.com/kn4lf66.htm
>> Florida/US Raw Weather Forecasting Resource Links: 
>> http://www.kn4lf.com/kn4lf13.htm
>> Florida Daily Weather Discussion: http://www.kn4lf.com/flwx1.htm
>> Man Induced Climate Change Refuted: 
>> http://www.kn4lf.com/globalwarminglie.htm
>> New Scientific Evidence for the Existence of God: 
>> http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/audio/newevidence.htm*
>>
>>
>>
>>     Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 05:44:37 -0500 (EST)
>>     From: wa4ikq at nevets.oau.org <mailto:wa4ikq at nevets.oau.org>
>>     (Geoffrey Dick)
>>     Subject: [wxqc] ASOS BARO Drift
>>     To: wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
>>     <mailto:wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net>
>>     Message-ID: <m1GqSMH-000prUC at nevets.oau.org
>>     <mailto:m1GqSMH-000prUC at nevets.oau.org>>
>>
>>
>>     Subject: [wxqc] ASOS BARO Drift
>>
>>     I brought this subject up a few weeks back, and the consensus
>>     digressed to
>>     the conclusion that ASOS barometer drift does occur.   Since this
>>     refector
>>     is supposed to be a discussion of weather quality issues, I
>>     believe it is
>>     the right forum to dig deeper to try to advance the science.  In
>>     my case,
>>     and likely other wxqc members, the question is how to use the
>>     relative
>>     numbers published daily by Gladstone Analysis?
>>
>>     I have been tracking the daily Gladstone summary errors for
>>     barometric
>>     pressure of 3 airports and 8 home weather stations within 12 miles
>>     of my
>>     location, and discovered an interesting phenomena that has yet to be
>>     explained.  The home weather stations appear stable, but the ASOS all
>>     drift, and sometimes in opposite directions a few tenths of a
>>     millibar.
>>
>>     Why should anyone care about this?   Many of us use the Airport
>>     weather
>>     station data to align our home weather stations.   We rely on the ASOS
>>     stations to be accurate, and traceable to a single source, the
>>     National
>>     Bureau of Standards.  Aircraft, before flight departure, align their
>>     altimeters to the local airport barometric settings to be prepared for
>>     instrument flying, if needed, to land at another airport.  Below
>>     1000 ft.
>>     of altitude, one tenth of a millibar translates 3 feet of error, or
>>     a hard landing in poor visability conditions.  In terms of setting our
>>     home weather stations, we might align our station on November 4, to a
>>     close ASOS airport like KORL, and find from daily Gladstone Analysis,
>>     that a week later on November 11, 12, and 13, our weather station is
>>     reading a half millibar off.  That represents another 0.5 mb
>>     adjustment,
>>     Should it be done?
>>
>>     The below data for case study was taken during November 2006, a very
>>     stable time for quiesent weather in Central Florida.   All of the
>>     stations listed are within a circle of 12 miles radius, at nearly the
>>     same elevation of my station, AS140 (WA4IKQ). 
>>
>>     >From daily Gladstone analysis of "Nearby Stations":
>>
>>              Deviation in Barometric Pressure from AS140, Elevation 33m
>>           ASOS STATIONS    HOME WEATHER STATIONS
>>     ELEV  34m  29m  17m    19m    30m   34m   35m    33m   30m  
>>     32m    34m 
>>     DATE  KORL KMCO KSFB  CW2052 AP063 AP008 CW0572 AP520 AP723 CW4252
>>     CW0927
>>     11/1   .2   .5   .6     .9    .1    .1    .7     .6    -.2   
>>     1.4     0
>>     11/2   .2   .5   .6    1.0    .1    .1    .8     .5    -.2   
>>     1.4    .1
>>     11/3   .1   .5   .6    1.0    .1    .1    .8     .5    -.2   
>>     1.4     0
>>     11/4   .0   .5   .5     .9    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.2   
>>     1.4   -.1
>>     11/5   .0   .5   .5     .8    .1    .2    .7     .5    -.1   
>>     1.4   -.1
>>     11/6   .0   .5   .5     .8    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.1   
>>     1.4   -.1
>>     11/7   .2   .6   .7     .7    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.2   
>>     1.4   -.1
>>     11/8   .4   .7   .9     .8    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.2   
>>     1.4   -.1
>>     11/9   .4   .7   .9     .9    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.2   
>>     1.4   -.1
>>     11/10  .4   .7  1.0     .9    .1    .1    .7     .4    -.2   
>>     1.4   -.1
>>     11/11  .5   .7  1.0     .9    .1     0    .7     .4    -.3   
>>     1.4     0
>>     11/12  .6   .7  1.0     .9    .1     0    .7     .4    -.3   
>>     1.4     0
>>     11/13  .5   .7  1.0     .9    .1    .4    .7     .4    -.3   
>>     1.4     0
>>     11/14  .5   .6  1.0     .8    .1    .5    .7     .4    -.3   
>>     1.4   -.1
>>     11/15  .5   .6  1.0     .9    .1    .5    .7     .4    -.4   
>>     1.4     0
>>     11/16  .4   .7  1.1     .9    .1    .5    .7     .4    -.3   
>>     1.4   -.1
>>     11/17  .5   .7  1.1     .9    .1    .5    .7     .3    -.4   
>>     1.4   -.1
>>     11/18  .6   .8  1.2     .8    .1    .5    .7     .3    -.4   
>>     1.4   -.1
>>     11/19  .6   .7  1.2     .8    .1    .5    .6     .3    -.4   
>>     1.4   -.1
>>     11/20  .6   .7  1.2     .7    .1    .5    .6     .3    -.5   
>>     1.4   -.1
>>     11/21  .6   .7  1.1     .7    .1    .5    .6     .2    -.4   
>>     1.4   -.1
>>     11/22  .6   .7  1.1     .7    .1    .5    .6     .2    -.5   
>>     1.4   -.1
>>     11/23  .5   .6  1.1     .7    .1    .5    .6     .2    -.6   
>>     1.4   -.1
>>     11/24  .6   .7  1.1     .7    .1    .1    .6     .2    -.6   
>>     1.4   -.1
>>     11/25  .5   .7  1.1     .7    .1    .1    .6     .2    -.5   
>>     1.4   -.1
>>     11/26  .5   .7  1.0     .6    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5   
>>     1.4    .2
>>     11/27  .4   .7  1.1     .6    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5   
>>     1.4    .2
>>     11/28  .5   .6  1.0     .6    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5   
>>     1.4    .2
>>     11/29  .2   .5   .9     .5    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5   
>>     1.4    .2
>>     11/30  .2   .2   .8     .5    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5   
>>     1.4    .2
>>
>>     Notice the barometric errors in the first 3 columns (ASOS)
>>     stations vary
>>     more than the home weather stations, represented by the next 8
>>     columns.
>>
>>     Notice some stations change when others do not.
>>
>>     Could this phenomena be from a leap forward in stability of home
>>     weather
>>     instrumentation?   Could it be that the ASOS stations lack a
>>     controlled
>>     temperature environment for the barometer, electronics, and station
>>     power supplies, sitting in a non-airconditioned cabinet outdoors
>>     in an
>>     open field? 
>>
>>     I invite you to dig in and discuss this.
>>
>>      
>>     Kind regards,
>>
>>     Geoffrey Dick
>>     WA4IKQ, AS140
>>     Winter Park, FL
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> wxqc mailing list
>> Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
>> To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
>> http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc
>>
>> The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> wxqc mailing list
> Post messages to wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
> To unsubcribe or change delivery options, please go to:
> http://server.gladstonefamily.net/mailman/listinfo/wxqc
>
> The contents of this message are the responsibility of the author.
>
>
>   

From Evan.Bookbinder at noaa.gov  Sat Dec  2 20:52:33 2006
From: Evan.Bookbinder at noaa.gov (Evan Bookbinder)
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 20:52:33 -0600
Subject: [wxqc] ASOS Baro Drift
In-Reply-To: <45723A76.2000706@wa4phy.net>
References: <mailman.22.1165088899.4465.wxqc@lists.gladstonefamily.net>
	<002801c71676$faa50820$6401a8c0@thomas> <4572283F.7090701@noaa.gov>
	<45723A76.2000706@wa4phy.net>
Message-ID: <45723BF1.6060801@noaa.gov>

Sam,

The case made by Thomas was reflecting NWS/FAA ASOS/AWOS sites. Indeed 
there are many city or privately owned ASOS/AWOS sites that have funded 
long-line communications to disseminate METAR observations. In these 
cases, one can attempt to work with the local site owner, but the data 
in this case are not official or commissioned for utilization in 
climatological records or certain class aircraft operations. In this 
case, the site amounts to a VERY expensive home weather station if you will.

Evan

Sam Drinkard wrote:
> Evan,
>
>     Not trying to fan the fire, but I can point you to an ASOS station 
> that is NOT maintained by NWS, and is, in fact off on altimeter.  Was at 
> the CAE NWS office this very day, and asked about the discrepancy, and I 
> was told KHQU (Thomson, GA) is not an NWS facility, and does not come 
> under their control, but is shown on all the AWIPS terms just like any 
> other.  Using the MADIS surface obs page, take a look at the diffs 
> between KHQU and KDNL / KAGS.  My POC at CAE told me they know  it's 
> there, and take it with a grain of salt.  So, the question begs, how 
> many other ASOS / AWOS stations are of like kind?
>
> Sam
>
> Evan Bookbinder wrote:
>   
>> Thomas,
>>
>> Respectfully, this sounds like a load of political mantra that's not at 
>> all related to the topic at hand. If you feel the need to get something 
>> off your chest, this isn't the place or a forum to discuss the facts, 
>> myths or conjured ideas of global warming. This forum has prided itself 
>> on the wonderful membership of dedicated meteorologists, hobbyists, 
>> amateurs etc...who go well beyond their means to provide quality weather 
>> data to the free world -- that is the name of this forum, no??
>>
>> To support your case, please find me an antique, manually read mercury 
>> barometer which is even within an order of magnitude of the 
>> accuracy/precision of the ASOS unit. I'm not saying that ASOS is the 
>> greatest thing since sliced bread (I miss the old human observation 
>> remarks too), but your statements are completely unqualified.
>>
>> Your generalization that equipment is poorly or non-maintained is 
>> factually false.  NWS electronics technicians regularly visit the ASOS 
>> sites -- on the order of once every 1-2 months. Documentation of these 
>> visits, data quality checks, and the pristine siting of our equipment is 
>> all photographed and available. I am mildly curious as to how you've 
>> visited dozens of ASOS sites since security and runway clearance is 
>> required to access those sites -- generally held only by NWS/FAA 
>> technicians.
>>
>> As for COOP sites, these sites also receive manual visits by 
>> hydrometeorological technicians at least twice yearly. Many old cotton 
>> region shelters are rotting, but I can assure you that the equipment 
>> inside them is state of the art and protected. The shelter need not end 
>> up in the Museum of Art, only reflect sunlight and allow ventilation 
>> through. Keep in mind that urbanization, tree growth, etc...is part of 
>> the evolving earth. While I wouldn't go placing a new site on a highway 
>> or under a tree, there's something to be said about preserving these old 
>> sites to see exactly what urban development can in fact DO to climatology.
>>
>> With respect to the Lakeland site, I'm not aware of the identifier, but 
>> would be willing to look into this with you. If you have sufficient 
>> analysis showing a static long term bias, I'm sure the NWS would help 
>> you in working to get the FAA (or whoever the site owner is) to repair 
>> or replace the sensor.
>>
>> While I'm on my soapbox, I would like to turn the subject and thank all 
>> the hams who participated in the SkyWARN Recognition Day special event 
>> over the last 24 hours. We made hundreds of contacts from Jamaica to 
>> Canada and New York to California. I spent 9 hours on the radio last 
>> night and had a blast!!
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Evan (WX2CHS -- SkyWARN special event station KC0SKY)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thomas Giella KN4LF wrote:
>>   
>>     
>>> *Geoffrey*,
>>>  
>>> *It's sad but true ASOS/AWOS stations will never produce the same long 
>>> term data accuracy that the human observer produced in previous 
>>> decades. The automatic equipment is over priced (like the proverbial 
>>> $2000 toilet seat) and price is not synonymous with quality or accuracy. *
>>> ** 
>>> *Equipment site exposure is often poor and equipment maintenance poor 
>>> to nonexistent and the problem is not confined just to ASOS/AWOS 
>>> stations only. **Every level of the weather observation network in the 
>>> U.S. is poorly maintained from first order stations down to COOP 
>>> stations and this contributes to the false appearance of global warming.*
>>> ** 
>>> *I have personally visited dozens of ASOS, FAA manual, NWS first order 
>>> and COOP stations over the many years and have always been aghast at 
>>> the poor maintenance of the site and equipment. At the nearby Plant 
>>> City, FL COOP station the aspirated instrument shelter for the MMTS is 
>>> leaning at a 35 degree angle, under an oak tree and only a few feet 
>>> from a busy 4 laned highway. It's been that way now for a number of 
>>> years and it's exposure issue has been reported. **At the nearby 
>>> Lakeland Linder Airport the dewpoint readings coming from the FAA 
>>> equipment have had a -5 deg. F dewpoint error for quite a number of 
>>> years too.*
>>> ** 
>>> *Take Care,
>>> Thomas F. Giella, KN4LF
>>> Retired Meteorologist & Space Plasma Physicist
>>> Lakeland, FL, USA
>>> flycylone at tampabay.rr.com <mailto:flycylone at tampabay.rr.com>*
>>>  
>>> *NWS Tampa Bay, FL SKYWARN Observer #POL-10A
>>> CWOP Station #AR692/KN4LF*
>>>  
>>> *Live Lakeland, FL Weather Observations: http://www.kn4lf.com/index1.html
>>> Lakeland, FL Daily Climatological Weather Data Archive: 
>>> http://www.kn4lf.com/kn4lf22.htm
>>> November 2006 Lakeland, FL Daily Climatological Weather Observations 
>>> http://www.kn4lf.com/kn4lf66.htm
>>> Florida/US Raw Weather Forecasting Resource Links: 
>>> http://www.kn4lf.com/kn4lf13.htm
>>> Florida Daily Weather Discussion: http://www.kn4lf.com/flwx1.htm
>>> Man Induced Climate Change Refuted: 
>>> http://www.kn4lf.com/globalwarminglie.htm
>>> New Scientific Evidence for the Existence of God: 
>>> http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/audio/newevidence.htm*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 05:44:37 -0500 (EST)
>>>     From: wa4ikq at nevets.oau.org <mailto:wa4ikq at nevets.oau.org>
>>>     (Geoffrey Dick)
>>>     Subject: [wxqc] ASOS BARO Drift
>>>     To: wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
>>>     <mailto:wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net>
>>>     Message-ID: <m1GqSMH-000prUC at nevets.oau.org
>>>     <mailto:m1GqSMH-000prUC at nevets.oau.org>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     Subject: [wxqc] ASOS BARO Drift
>>>
>>>     I brought this subject up a few weeks back, and the consensus
>>>     digressed to
>>>     the conclusion that ASOS barometer drift does occur.   Since this
>>>     refector
>>>     is supposed to be a discussion of weather quality issues, I
>>>     believe it is
>>>     the right forum to dig deeper to try to advance the science.  In
>>>     my case,
>>>     and likely other wxqc members, the question is how to use the
>>>     relative
>>>     numbers published daily by Gladstone Analysis?
>>>
>>>     I have been tracking the daily Gladstone summary errors for
>>>     barometric
>>>     pressure of 3 airports and 8 home weather stations within 12 miles
>>>     of my
>>>     location, and discovered an interesting phenomena that has yet to be
>>>     explained.  The home weather stations appear stable, but the ASOS all
>>>     drift, and sometimes in opposite directions a few tenths of a
>>>     millibar.
>>>
>>>     Why should anyone care about this?   Many of us use the Airport
>>>     weather
>>>     station data to align our home weather stations.   We rely on the ASOS
>>>     stations to be accurate, and traceable to a single source, the
>>>     National
>>>     Bureau of Standards.  Aircraft, before flight departure, align their
>>>     altimeters to the local airport barometric settings to be prepared for
>>>     instrument flying, if needed, to land at another airport.  Below
>>>     1000 ft.
>>>     of altitude, one tenth of a millibar translates 3 feet of error, or
>>>     a hard landing in poor visability conditions.  In terms of setting our
>>>     home weather stations, we might align our station on November 4, to a
>>>     close ASOS airport like KORL, and find from daily Gladstone Analysis,
>>>     that a week later on November 11, 12, and 13, our weather station is
>>>     reading a half millibar off.  That represents another 0.5 mb
>>>     adjustment,
>>>     Should it be done?
>>>
>>>     The below data for case study was taken during November 2006, a very
>>>     stable time for quiesent weather in Central Florida.   All of the
>>>     stations listed are within a circle of 12 miles radius, at nearly the
>>>     same elevation of my station, AS140 (WA4IKQ). 
>>>
>>>     >From daily Gladstone analysis of "Nearby Stations":
>>>
>>>              Deviation in Barometric Pressure from AS140, Elevation 33m
>>>           ASOS STATIONS    HOME WEATHER STATIONS
>>>     ELEV  34m  29m  17m    19m    30m   34m   35m    33m   30m  
>>>     32m    34m 
>>>     DATE  KORL KMCO KSFB  CW2052 AP063 AP008 CW0572 AP520 AP723 CW4252
>>>     CW0927
>>>     11/1   .2   .5   .6     .9    .1    .1    .7     .6    -.2   
>>>     1.4     0
>>>     11/2   .2   .5   .6    1.0    .1    .1    .8     .5    -.2   
>>>     1.4    .1
>>>     11/3   .1   .5   .6    1.0    .1    .1    .8     .5    -.2   
>>>     1.4     0
>>>     11/4   .0   .5   .5     .9    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.2   
>>>     1.4   -.1
>>>     11/5   .0   .5   .5     .8    .1    .2    .7     .5    -.1   
>>>     1.4   -.1
>>>     11/6   .0   .5   .5     .8    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.1   
>>>     1.4   -.1
>>>     11/7   .2   .6   .7     .7    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.2   
>>>     1.4   -.1
>>>     11/8   .4   .7   .9     .8    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.2   
>>>     1.4   -.1
>>>     11/9   .4   .7   .9     .9    .1    .1    .7     .5    -.2   
>>>     1.4   -.1
>>>     11/10  .4   .7  1.0     .9    .1    .1    .7     .4    -.2   
>>>     1.4   -.1
>>>     11/11  .5   .7  1.0     .9    .1     0    .7     .4    -.3   
>>>     1.4     0
>>>     11/12  .6   .7  1.0     .9    .1     0    .7     .4    -.3   
>>>     1.4     0
>>>     11/13  .5   .7  1.0     .9    .1    .4    .7     .4    -.3   
>>>     1.4     0
>>>     11/14  .5   .6  1.0     .8    .1    .5    .7     .4    -.3   
>>>     1.4   -.1
>>>     11/15  .5   .6  1.0     .9    .1    .5    .7     .4    -.4   
>>>     1.4     0
>>>     11/16  .4   .7  1.1     .9    .1    .5    .7     .4    -.3   
>>>     1.4   -.1
>>>     11/17  .5   .7  1.1     .9    .1    .5    .7     .3    -.4   
>>>     1.4   -.1
>>>     11/18  .6   .8  1.2     .8    .1    .5    .7     .3    -.4   
>>>     1.4   -.1
>>>     11/19  .6   .7  1.2     .8    .1    .5    .6     .3    -.4   
>>>     1.4   -.1
>>>     11/20  .6   .7  1.2     .7    .1    .5    .6     .3    -.5   
>>>     1.4   -.1
>>>     11/21  .6   .7  1.1     .7    .1    .5    .6     .2    -.4   
>>>     1.4   -.1
>>>     11/22  .6   .7  1.1     .7    .1    .5    .6     .2    -.5   
>>>     1.4   -.1
>>>     11/23  .5   .6  1.1     .7    .1    .5    .6     .2    -.6   
>>>     1.4   -.1
>>>     11/24  .6   .7  1.1     .7    .1    .1    .6     .2    -.6   
>>>     1.4   -.1
>>>     11/25  .5   .7  1.1     .7    .1    .1    .6     .2    -.5   
>>>     1.4   -.1
>>>     11/26  .5   .7  1.0     .6    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5   
>>>     1.4    .2
>>>     11/27  .4   .7  1.1     .6    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5   
>>>     1.4    .2
>>>     11/28  .5   .6  1.0     .6    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5   
>>>     1.4    .2
>>>     11/29  .2   .5   .9     .5    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5   
>>>     1.4    .2
>>>     11/30  .2   .2   .8     .5    .1    .2    .6     .1    -.5   
>>>     1.4    .2
>>>
>>>     Notice the barometric errors in the first 3 columns (ASOS)
>>>     stations vary
>>>     more than the home weather stations, represented by the next 8
>>>     columns.
>>>
>>>     Notice some stations change when others do not.
>>>
>>>     Could this phenomena be from a leap forward in stability of home
>>>     weather
>>>     instrumentation?   Could it be that the ASOS stations lack a
>>>     controlled
>>>     temperature environment for the barometer, electronics, and station
>>>     power supplies, sitting in a non-airconditioned cabinet outdoors
>>>     in an
>>>     open field? 
>>>
>>>     I invite you to dig in and discuss this.
>>>
>>>      
>>>     Kind regards,
>>>
>>>     Geoffrey Dick
>>>     WA4IKQ, AS140
>>>     Winter Park, FL
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
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>>>     
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
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>>   
>>     
> _______________________________________________
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From gerry.creager at tamu.edu  Sat Dec  2 21:06:46 2006
From: gerry.creager at tamu.edu (Gerry Creager N5JXS)
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 21:06:46 -0600
Subject: [wxqc] ASOS Baro Drift
In-Reply-To: <45723BF1.6060801@noaa.gov>
References: <mailman.22.1165088899.4465.wxqc@lists.gladstonefamily.net>	<002801c71676$faa50820$6401a8c0@thomas>
	<4572283F.7090701@noaa.gov>	<45723A76.2000706@wa4phy.net>
	<45723BF1.6060801@noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <45723F46.7070704@tamu.edu>

Echoing some of Evans comments here, in Texas, AWOS sites are paid for 
and owned by the State's Department of Transportation and augment the 
NWS ASOS system of official observations.  TxDOT's AWOS installation and 
maintenance are contracted to a Canadian company who subcontracts same 
to a variety of folks, some better than others.  In Texas, one of my 
colleagues has a one (or slightly larger, but it's mostly Troy) man 
campaign to track down poor installation and bring it to the attention 
of TxDOT.  TxDOT has taken action in virtually all cases to require the 
contractor to get things right, up to requiring them to confirm things 
with Troy.  They were reluctant and claimed to know more than a 
professional meteorologist... at first.  However, they're doing somewhat 
better.  Now, if we could just get them to collect data more than every 
20 minutes...

gerry

Evan Bookbinder wrote:
> Sam,
> 
> The case made by Thomas was reflecting NWS/FAA ASOS/AWOS sites. Indeed 
> there are many city or privately owned ASOS/AWOS sites that have funded 
> long-line communications to disseminate METAR observations. In these 
> cases, one can attempt to work with the local site owner, but the data 
> in this case are not official or commissioned for utilization in 
> climatological records or certain class aircraft operations. In this 
> case, the site amounts to a VERY expensive home weather station if you will.
> 
> Evan
> 
> Sam Drinkard wrote:
> 
>>Evan,
>>
>>    Not trying to fan the fire, but I can point you to an ASOS station 
>>that is NOT maintained by NWS, and is, in fact off on altimeter.  Was at 
>>the CAE NWS office this very day, and asked about the discrepancy, and I 
>>was told KHQU (Thomson, GA) is not an NWS facility, and does not come 
>>under their control, but is shown on all the AWIPS terms just like any 
>>other.  Using the MADIS surface obs page, take a look at the diffs 
>>between KHQU and KDNL / KAGS.  My POC at CAE told me they know  it's 
>>there, and take it with a grain of salt.  So, the question begs, how 
>>many other ASOS / AWOS stations are of like kind?
>>
>>Sam
>>
>>Evan Bookbinder wrote:
>>  
>>
>>>Thomas,
>>>
>>>Respectfully, this sounds like a load of political mantra that's not at 
>>>all related to the topic at hand. If you feel the need to get something 
>>>off your chest, this isn't the place or a forum to discuss the facts, 
>>>myths or conjured ideas of global warming. This forum has prided itself 
>>>on the wonderful membership of dedicated meteorologists, hobbyists, 
>>>amateurs etc...who go well beyond their means to provide quality weather 
>>>data to the free world -- that is the name of this forum, no??
>>>
>>>To support your case, please find me an antique, manually read mercury 
>>>barometer which is even within an order of magnitude of the 
>>>accuracy/precision of the ASOS unit. I'm not saying that ASOS is the 
>>>greatest thing since sliced bread (I miss the old human observation 
>>>remarks too), but your statements are completely unqualified.
>>>
>>>Your generalization that equipment is poorly or non-maintained is 
>>>factually false.  NWS electronics technicians regularly visit the ASOS 
>>>sites -- on the order of once every 1-2 months. Documentation of these 
>>>visits, data quality checks, and the pristine siting of our equipment is 
>>>all photographed and available. I am mildly curious as to how you've 
>>>visited dozens of ASOS sites since security and runway clearance is 
>>>required to access those sites -- generally held only by NWS/FAA 
>>>technicians.
>>>
>>>As for COOP sites, these sites also receive manual visits by 
>>>hydrometeorological technicians at least twice yearly. Many old cotton 
>>>region shelters are rotting, but I can assure you that the equipment 
>>>inside them is state of the art and protected. The shelter need not end 
>>>up in the Museum of Art, only reflect sunlight and allow ventilation 
>>>through. Keep in mind that urbanization, tree growth, etc...is part of 
>>>the evolving earth. While I wouldn't go placing a new site on a highway 
>>>or under a tree, there's something to be said about preserving these old 
>>>sites to see exactly what urban development can in fact DO to climatology.
>>>
>>>With respect to the Lakeland site, I'm not aware of the identifier, but 
>>>would be willing to look into this with you. If you have sufficient 
>>>analysis showing a static long term bias, I'm sure the NWS would help 
>>>you in working to get the FAA (or whoever the site owner is) to repair 
>>>or replace the sensor.
>>>
>>>While I'm on my soapbox, I would like to turn the subject and thank all 
>>>the hams who participated in the SkyWARN Recognition Day special event 
>>>over the last 24 hours. We made hundreds of contacts from Jamaica to 
>>>Canada and New York to California. I spent 9 hours on the radio last 
>>>night and had a blast!!
>>>
>>>Best Regards,
>>>Evan (WX2CHS -- SkyWARN special event station KC0SKY)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Thomas Giella KN4LF wrote:
>>>  
>>>    
>>>
>>>>*Geoffrey*,
>>>> 
>>>>*It's sad but true ASOS/AWOS stations will never produce the same long 
>>>>term data accuracy that the human observer produced in previous 
>>>>decades. The automatic equipment is over priced (like the proverbial 
>>>>$2000 toilet seat) and price is not synonymous with quality or accuracy. *
>>>>** 
>>>>*Equipment site exposure is often poor and equipment maintenance poor 
>>>>to nonexistent and the problem is not confined just to ASOS/AWOS 
>>>>stations only. **Every level of the weather observation network in the 
>>>>U.S. is poorly maintained from first order stations down to COOP 
>>>>stations and this contributes to the false appearance of global warming.*
>>>>** 
>>>>*I have personally visited dozens of ASOS, FAA manual, NWS first order 
>>>>and COOP stations over the many years and have always been aghast at 
>>>>the poor maintenance of the site and equipment. At the nearby Plant 
>>>>City, FL COOP station the aspirated instrument shelter for the MMTS is 
>>>>leaning at a 35 degree angle, under an oak tree and only a few feet 
>>>>from a busy 4 laned highway. It's been that way now for a number of 
>>>>years and it's exposure issue has been reported. **At the nearby 
>>>>Lakeland Linder Airport the dewpoint readings coming from the FAA 
>>>>equipment have had a -5 deg. F dewpoint error for quite a number of 
>>>>years too.*
>>>>** 
>>>>*Take Care,
>>>>Thomas F. Giella, KN4LF
>>>>Retired Meteorologist & Space Plasma Physicist
>>>>Lakeland, FL, USA
>>>>flycylone at tampabay.rr.com <mailto:flycylone at tampabay.rr.com>*
>>>> 
>>>>*NWS Tampa Bay, FL SKYWARN Observer #POL-10A
>>>>CWOP Station #AR692/KN4LF*
>>>> 
>>>>*Live Lakeland, FL Weather Observations: http://www.kn4lf.com/index1.html
>>>>Lakeland, FL Daily Climatological Weather Data Archive: 
>>>>http://www.kn4lf.com/kn4lf22.htm
>>>>November 2006 Lakeland, FL Daily Climatological Weather Observations 
>>>>http://www.kn4lf.com/kn4lf66.htm
>>>>Florida/US Raw Weather Forecasting Resource Links: 
>>>>http://www.kn4lf.com/kn4lf13.htm
>>>>Florida Daily Weather Discussion: http://www.kn4lf.com/flwx1.htm
>>>>Man Induced Climate Change Refuted: 
>>>>http://www.kn4lf.com/globalwarminglie.htm
>>>>New Scientific Evidence for the Existence of God: 
>>>>http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/audio/newevidence.htm*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 05:44:37 -0500 (EST)
>>>>    From: wa4ikq at nevets.oau.org <mailto:wa4ikq at nevets.oau.org>
>>>>    (Geoffrey Dick)
>>>>    Subject: [wxqc] ASOS BARO Drift
>>>>    To: wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net
>>>>    <mailto:wxqc at lists.gladstonefamily.net>
>>>>    Message-ID: <m1GqSMH-000prUC at nevets.oau.org
>>>>    <mailto:m1GqSMH-000prUC at nevets.oau.org>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    Subject: [wxqc] ASOS BARO Drift
>>>>
>>>>    I brought this subject up a few weeks back, and the consensus
>>>>    digressed to
>>>>    the conclusion that ASOS barometer drift does occur.   Since this
>>>>    refector
>>>>